The Power of Reinforcement
Part of the sequence: The Science of Winning at Life
Also see: Basics of Animal Reinforcement, Basics of Human Reinforcement, Physical and Mental Behavior, Wanting vs. Liking Revisited, Approving reinforces low-effort behaviors, Applying Behavioral Psychology on Myself.
Story 1:
On Skype with Eliezer, I said: "Eliezer, you've been unusually pleasant these past three weeks. I'm really happy to see that, and moreover, it increases my probability than an Eliezer-led FAI research team will work. What caused this change, do you think?"
Eliezer replied: "Well, three weeks ago I was working with Anna and Alicorn, and every time I said something nice they fed me an M&M."
Story 2:
I once witnessed a worker who hated keeping a work log because it was only used "against" him. His supervisor would call to say "Why did you spend so much time on that?" or "Why isn't this done yet?" but never "I saw you handled X, great job!" Not surprisingly, he often "forgot" to fill out his worklog.
Ever since I got everyone at the Singularity Institute to keep work logs, I've tried to avoid connections between "concerned" feedback and staff work logs, and instead take time to comment positively on things I see in those work logs.
Story 3:
Chatting with Eliezer, I said, "Eliezer, I get the sense that I've inadvertently caused you to be slightly averse to talking to me. Maybe because we disagree on so many things, or something?"
Eliezer's reply was: "No, it's much simpler. Our conversations usually run longer than our previously set deadline, so whenever I finish talking with you I feel drained and slightly cranky."
Now I finish our conversations on time.
Story 4:
A major Singularity Institute donor recently said to me: "By the way, I decided that every time I donate to the Singularity Institute, I'll set aside an additional 5% for myself to do fun things with, as a motivation to donate."
The power of reinforcement
It's amazing to me how consistently we fail to take advantage of the power of reinforcement.
Maybe it's because behaviorist techniques like reinforcement feel like they don't respect human agency enough. But if you aren't treating humans more like animals than most people are, then you're modeling humans poorly.
You are not an agenty homunculus "corrupted" by heuristics and biases. You just are heuristics and biases. And you respond to reinforcement, because most of your motivation systems still work like the motivation systems of other animals.
A quick reminder of what you learned in high school
- A reinforcer is anything that, when it occurs in conjunction with an act, increases the probability that the act will occur again.
- A positive reinforcer is something the subject wants, such as food, petting, or praise. Positive reinforcement occurs when a target behavior is followed by something the subject wants, and this increases the probability that the behavior will occur again.
- A negative reinforcer is something the subject wants to avoid, such as a blow, a frown, or an unpleasant sound. Negative reinforcement occurs when a target behavior is followed by some relief from something the subject doesn't want, and this increases the probability that the behavior will happen again.
What works
- Small reinforcers are fine, as long as there is a strong correlation between the behavior and the reinforcer (Schneider 1973; Todorov et al. 1984). All else equal, a large reinforcer is more effective than a small one (Christopher 1988; Ludvig et al. 2007; Wolfe 1936), but the more you increase the reinforcer magnitude, the less benefit you get from the increase (Frisch & Dickinson 1990).
- The reinforcer should immediately follow the target behavior (Escobar & Bruner 2007; Schlinger & Blakely 1994; Schneider 1990). Pryor (2007) notes that when the reward is food, small bits (like M&Ms) are best because they can be consumed instantly instead of being consumed over an extended period of time.
- Any feature of a behavior can be strengthened (e.g., its intensity, frequency, rate, duration, persistence, its shape or form), so long as a reinforcer can be made contingent on that particular feature (Neuringer 2002).
Example applications
- If you want someone to call you, then when they do call, don't nag them about how they never call you. Instead, be engaging and positive.
- When trying to maintain order in a class, ignore unruly behavior and praise good behavior (Madsen et al. 1968; McNamara 1987).
- Reward originality to encourage creativity (Pryor et al. 1969; Chambers et al. 1977; Eisenberger & Armeli 1997; Eisenberger & Rhoades 2001).
- If you want students to understand the material, don't get excited when they guess the teacher's password but instead when they demonstrate a technical understanding.
- To help someone improve at dance or sport, ignore poor performance but reward good performance immediately, for example by shouting "Good!" (Buzas & Allyon 1981) The reason you should ignore poor performance if you say "No, you're doing it wrong!" you are inadvertently punishing the effort. A better response to a mistake would be to reinforce the effort: "Good effort! You're almost there! Try once more."
- Reward honesty to help people be more honest with you (Lanza et al 1982).
- Reward opinion-expressing to get people to express their opinions more often (Verplanck 1955).
- You may even be able to reinforce-away annoying involuntary behaviors, such as twitches (Laurenti-Lions et al. 1985) or vomiting (Wolf et al. 1965).
- Want a young infant to learn to speak more quickly? Reinforce their attempts at vocalization (Ramely & Finkelstein 1978).
- More training should occur via video games like DragonBox, because computer programs can easily provide instant reinforcement many times a minute for very specific behaviors (Fletcher-Flinn & Gravatt 1995).
For additional examples and studies, see The Power of Reinforcement (2004), Don't Shoot the Dog (2006), and Learning and Behavior (2008).
I close with Story 5, from Amy Sutherland:
For a book I was writing about a school for exotic animal trainers, I started commuting from Maine to California, where I spent my days watching students do the seemingly impossible: teaching hyenas to pirouette on command, cougars to offer their paws for a nail clipping, and baboons to skateboard.
I listened, rapt, as professional trainers explained how they taught dolphins to flip and elephants to paint. Eventually it hit me that the same techniques might work on that stubborn but lovable species, the American husband.
The central lesson I learned from exotic animal trainers is that I should reward behavior I like and ignore behavior I don't. After all, you don't get a sea lion to balance a ball on the end of its nose by nagging. The same goes for the American husband.
Back in Maine, I began thanking Scott if he threw one dirty shirt into the hamper. If he threw in two, I'd kiss him. Meanwhile, I would step over any soiled clothes on the floor without one sharp word, though I did sometimes kick them under the bed. But as he basked in my appreciation, the piles became smaller.
I was using what trainers call "approximations," rewarding the small steps toward learning a whole new behavior...
Once I started thinking this way, I couldn't stop. At the school in California, I'd be scribbling notes on how to walk an emu or have a wolf accept you as a pack member, but I'd be thinking, "I can't wait to try this on Scott."
...After two years of exotic animal training, my marriage is far smoother, my husband much easier to love.
Next post: Rational Romantic Relationships Part 1
Previous post: The Good News of Situationist Psychology
My thanks to Erica Edelman for doing much of the research for this post.
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Comments (467)
Lots of cool videos of operant conditioning and animals are here (also click on the other chapters).
I just read Don't Shoot The Dog, and one of the interesting bits was that it seemed like getting trained the way it described was fun for the animals, like a good game. Also as the skill was learnt the task difficulty level was raised so it wasn't too easy. And the rewards seemed somewhat symbolic - a clicker, and being fed with food that wasn't officially restricted outside the training sessions.
Thinking about applying it to myself, having the reward not be too important outside the game/practise means I'm not likely to want to bypass the game to get the reward directly. Having the system be fun means it's improving my quality of life in that way in addition to any behaviour change.
I haven't done much about ramping up the challenge. How does one make doing the dishes more challenging?
But I did make sure to make the rewards quicker/more frequent by rewarding subtasks.
Wow, thanks for this great article that was the final piece of information that tipped me over towards getting my shit together. Within 10 minutes after reading it and browsing the comments, I was on my bicycle going to buy small treats I like, that I now give myself for every achieved small goal (~2-10 min of work).
I now wonder though if maybe I should give myself another reinforcer when starting to work with a new goal, otherwise maybe I will only strive for finishing as fast as possible, but starting with a new small goal won't be that much reinforced? Maybe this is my mind trying to get more candy though, so I would be thankful for outside perspective.
Have you been trying this? Any luck?
It worked with similar effectiveness as other techniques I implement - that means only until I have done enough to feel good about myself (2-5 productive days)...
related: http://gettingstronger.org/2012/01/hormesis-and-the-limbic-brain/
"Reprogramming the amygdala. This is the indirect way to re-program the hypothalamus, by altering the amygdaloid reward circuitry that feeds it. There are a number approaches to achieving this, some of which I’ve outlined in previous articles, but all of them fall generally under the umbrella of classical or Pavlovian conditioning. There are a few basic strategies:
"
Any non-sugary food related reinforcer?
Coffee/tea. Twice in the past week, during extremely busy shifts at work, one of the doctors has decided to buy Tim Hortons for all the nurses. I can't think of any other single event that has made me as happy (albeit for a short 5-minute time period.)
Perhaps it's just the unexpected generosity.
I remember a few years ago I was reading about positive psychology's various findings, such as that spending money on experiences with friends or family made one happier than spending money on an object for oneself; so I tried out buying donuts or bagels for a few university clubs. Everyone seemed much happier, for what was a relatively trivial amount of money invested (<$10 in every case).
(I don't remember noticing that the donut people were happier than the bagel people.)
Cheese would work well as a reinforcement for me. Also the proverbial carrot. And probably lots of other things.
Dark chocolate?
So, reinforcement with M&Ms doesn't translate into an addiction for extrinsic rewards and the reduction of intrinsic motivation?
I'm missing something here, I know.
One could attempt to fight that by reducing the number or frequency of M&Ms eaten over a long period of time, essentially weaning one's self off of extrinsic rewards.
I think it's still hard to privilege if that kind of effect exists in the first place.
The lead article conflates two process: habits and incentives. The very term "reinforcement" dates back to before the distinction was well-understood. Only in the last decade has it been known that habit operates from a neurology distinct from incentives. (The habit mechanism is in a much older part of the brain.) Only the first story, Yudkowsky and the jellybeans, deals clearly with reinforcement of habit. The others are probably primarily adjustment of incentives.
In using habit and incentive, different rules apply. Incentives require that the subject discern the contingency. The processes Skinner studied as "reinforcement" are mostly about incentives. You adjust schedules of reinforcement to alter the organism's expectancies. For incentive effects, consistent reinforcement is not usually best, as the results are subject to extinction soon after the organism stops getting the reward.
Habits, on the other hand, are blind. The organism doesn't need to see any contingency. Yudkowsky continued to be nice even after he no longer received the jellybeans. To form habits, as opposed to incentive structures, consistency is key.
In short, as a general rule, you want consistency to reward habits and considerable randomness to create lasting incentives.
But the difference extends also to the ethical questions raised. Altering others' incentives for our own benefit is part of ordinary human interaction. If his colleagues surreptitiously timed the offer of jellybeans to Yudkowsky when he acted nice, this is something else; the ethical reason is that Yudkowsky need not recognize what he's being rewarded for to be affected by the jellybeans.
Both habit and incentive are "powerful." But they're powerful for different reasons, in different ways; and to apply them effectively and ethically requires different procedures.
Can anyone here point me to the relevant scholarly literature discussing the differences between habits and incentives? I tried Google and Google Scholar but failed to find any paper or survey article that explicitly contrasts these two processes.
How do you tell which things you want to reinforce are habits (and should therefore be reinforced consistently) and which things are incentives?
I'd think a habit is something that just goes on as long as nothing happens to disrupt it. You no longer need to reinforce it.
But the only difference in the process of creating to two is the amount of consistency? That doesn't seem quite right.
I must confess I don't really understand the way 'incentive' is used in [deleted]'s post. Isn't an incentive usually a reward you use to get someone to do something? When I give my cat a treat I to get her cat to come when I call her, the treat is the incentive. I didn't create the incentive - the cat already liked the treats. All I did is get her to associate me calling her with getting a treat.
This post may have the highest upvotes per comment I've ever seen. Anyone got access to the database want to confirm that?
Nope, this is higher. (In fact, many of the top posts have much higher upvotes/comment ratio.)
Hm, I think I wasn't clear. I'm interested in comment upvotes per comment, not top-level post upvotes per comment. My assumption is that everyone here is primed to upvote due to the content of the post that most of the comments here are highly upvoted.
Or maybe you really did measure that that? You are probably right that some long-lasting classic posts have gotten high numbers of upvotes on their comments over the years just since so many people have read them.
Edit: relevant quotes from the post:
Now that we all know this, shouldn't we abolish downvotes? From my personal experience the emotional impact of a downvote is extremely frustrating and not helpful at all. The message I get from a downvote is "You are wrong!" or "What you said doesn't agree with the group consensus so we will punish you for it!". I don't see this as constructive in any sense.
The message I get from a downvote is "Someone did not like this." Obviously, that person is wrong. :-)
ETA: -2! Two people did not like this! I die. My brain turns into maggots which burst from my skull and multiply until they devour the world. All die. O the embarrassment.
I think downvotes are generally useful to other readers (though it's odd that the parent suggestion has one as I type), but I agree that people should be protected from the discouraging effect of an early, single downvote. So, why not postpone displaying the negative score to the user for long enough for possible upvotes to counter? (I don't volunteer to implement this).
Be aware that some people upvote comments "back to zero" that they wouldn't otherwise upvote. (Some other people consider this bad practice.)
The fact that reinforcement can be very effective in changing frequency of behavior doesn't say that punishment should never be used to change the frequency of behavior.
Reinforcement is useful for increasing frequency of behavior. When decreased frequency of behavior is desired, punishment is the type of intervention to use. (For applied behavior analysis, those are the definitions of reinforcement and punishment).
Either punishment or extinction (no punishment, no reward).
Sure. Although I wasn't clear about this, I had in mind the common case of a non-punishing downvoter who simply disagrees with the comment (or wants to see less of its ilk) without saying why. In case punishment is the desired effect, you're right - immediate is better.
I read this post last night. I was in the office late, not because I had a great deal to do, but because I was procrastinating. After reading it, I asked my friend to give me a quick call to say congratulations in a half an hour if I'd finished all the work. It took me 10 minutes to finish! :)
But that's probably more of a public commitment effect.
True. But I bet if coffeespoons makes this a routine thing, they'll eventually find themselves enjoying work more.
What expert timing, Luke! Just two days ago, I came across the fascinating practice of clicker training for horses - http://www.theclickercenter.com, while reading Kathy Sierra's old blog - http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/03/clicker_trained.html.
My only problem is that I need to train my own behaviour rather than someone else's. I'm going to try to use these techniques on myself, although I'm not sure if that's supposed to work.
Lessons learned:
continue to mentally /ignore people and posts I don't care for on IRC and online forums
never comment on bad posts or explain my downvote on LW
be more generous with upvoting good contributions and give a short praise when warranted.
The difference between explaining bad posts and punishing misbehaving dolphins is that the explaining is done for the purpose of the other readers, not just as a punishment.
I think this should be "never downvote".
Seems to me that a downvote would associate negative valance with both the act of posting on LW and with whatever their specific mistake is, with the latter being stronger. So no vote and a comment with a mixture of praise and criticism is probably the stronger play if you're looking to improve someone's writing or fix some technical mistake while keeping them as a contributor, but a downvote is still effective if all you care about is seeing fewer posts of that kind.
That would be true if the point was actually about implementing the reinforcement ideal rather than using it to validate a premeditated ideal.
This is not quite justified; this is a post on how to use positive reinforcement, not how to use punishment.
(from the link)
Dolphins are more difficult to punish usefully than humans; for one, they're less likely to understand English.
Moving to object-level advice: I agree that not responding to bad comments or posts is generally a good idea. I think that responding to downvote explanation requests is a good idea about half of the time. Unsolicited downvote explanation is typically done to sway bystander opinion as well as inform the poster, and so deserves its own treatment.
I am probably unusual in this regard, but I think I would find both approaches equally aggravating. If someone points out that I've made a mistake, anything other than a concise detailing of exactly how what I did differs from what I was supposed to do, is just going to irritate me. Also, my brain tends to interpret being ignored as a signal that I'm doing correctly.
I've always found that recommendations of what to do are much more useful than any kind of praise, reward, punishment, or criticism.
On the other hand, if everyone told you how to do everything, you might never learn the very important skill of teaching yourself to do things.
Is this because of the "damn it, I know I made a mistake, you telling me I did doesn't help!" effect? I get that too... A good thought experiment is that if I was making a type of mistake that I couldn't automatically tell I was making on my own, I would prefer it to be pointed out, even if not in a concise detailed fashion–the idea of not knowing that I'm making a mistake is kind of scary. What would your reaction be in that situation?
No, I react the same way whether I was previously aware of my mistake or not. I only experience that effect when I'm told to do something I am already doing.
Pragmatically, we as humans, just barely over the threshold into sapient intelligence, make mistakes we're not aware of constantly. If we didn't, we wouldn't need a superintelligence to fix the world; we'd have already done it ourselves. So finding the concept scary seems kind of pointless.(Sort of like being hydrophobic about the water in one's own body.) However, I would, of course, rather be aware of my mistakes than not.
But none of this is really on the topic, which was that the listed reinforcements don't seem even remotely applicable to humans in a universal way.
My actions have impacts on others. In general, I prefer to help other people or at least not harm them–however, I may harm someone by mistake, and I really don't want this to happen. If I make a mistake once and I realize it–fine, hopefully no harm done, I won't do it again. If I make a mistake and I don't know about it, well, maybe no harm done that time in particular, but I'm likely to keep making this mistake over and over, and possibly the first time I'll find out is when there is harm done. I think that justifies finding it scary.
Daniel Kahneman in Thinking, Fast and Slow:
There reason for that lies in regression to the mean when training (example of flight instructors in the israel airforce):
Since positive reinforcement is so counterintuitive: don't forget to reward yourself for rewarding somebody for good behaviour! :)
So you (or at least Kahneman) implicitly admit that punishment is effective at changing behavior.
Yes, I think so and apparently so does Kahneman. I don't think this is particularly controversial. Kahneman does say that positive reinforcement is more efficient (both in animals and humans).
Everyone who's looked at the data thinks that punishment can change behavior. The question is whether punishment makes the changes you want- and people dramatically overestimate the usefulness of punishment and dramatically underestimate the usefulness of positive reinforcement.
Depends, the current "everyone is special, everyone deserves an A for trying" culture almost certainly overvalues positive reinforcement.
Everyone getting an A isn't reinforcement. Reinforcement has to be conditional on something. If you give everyone who writes a long paper an A, that's reinforcing writing long papers. If you give everyone who writes a well-written paper an A, that's reinforcing well-written papers (and probably more what you want to do).
But if you just give everyone an A, that may be positive, but it simply isn't reinforcement.
I see a difference between 'niceness' and 'positive reinforcement'. The "everyone deserves an A for trying" approach is 'nice' but it generally isn't skillful positive reinforcement; I think a major problem with it is underestimating how much it rewards behaviors that look like trying but aren't trying.
There's also a basic value question- if you're trying to build self-esteem, it's not clear that an "A for trying" approach overvalues positive reinforcement, though if you're trying to build understanding, it clearly would be a misapplication of positive reinforcement.
Also it depends on the definition of what you "want" -- for example if you punish someone for bad behavior, what exactly is your goal?
All three goals are pleasant, though only the first one is officially desirable. The punishment works in all directions. Perhaps this is the reason why behavior change by punishment is popular more than it deserves; and why people rationalize its usefulness even when the first goal visibly fails.
Agreed. Hopefully, instructors care most about the first- but in general human interaction, the others can easily rise to prominence.
Speaking of regression to the mean, that seems to be one topic that wasn't really covered in the sequences that really should have been.
Note that there are many circumstances when it is right to criticise. For instance group brainstorming exercises are more productive if the participants criticise each others ideas.
Does this still work if I reinforce myself? Every time I read 5 lesswrong articles in a day, I give myself a reward. Or every time i have a cigarette, I kick a brick wall with no shoes on. If i was consistent with this for a long time, would it work?
It can. Basically the failure modes are the same as when reinforcing others. In particular, it's common to fail to maintain consistent thresholds of self-reward.
Totally. The wall will fall over in 20 years, tops!
The actual answer is maybe - it works for some but not others. A common point of failure is that people just train themselves to cheat and take the reward anyway. I'm not sure what the response rate is when full compliance to the reward schedule is assumed.
This seems to contradict the very powerful effect of learning from failure and corrective feedback. See http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/10/why-do-some-people-learn-faster-2/ for an accessible overview.
I'd conjecture this works better when someone can already perform the desired behavior and wants to form a habit, whereas learning from failure comes in when new information needs to be stored and reorganized.
I was about to reply "hmm, I wonder how you could reward someone for making an effort rather than just for succeeding, or reward them for noticing when they make a mistake." Then I read the article, and realized that that's basically what it talks about.
Yeah, failures are important. But the natural tendency, whether teaching others or trying to change our own behaviour, is to correct and criticize failures–which is basically negative reinforcement and trains people to stop trying because failing is so painful. The interesting new point in the article is that positively reinforcing for success, if done in a certain way (the "wow you're smart!" group of kids) can actually have the same effect as negatively reinforcing for failure.
More generally, a positive motivation often contains an implicit negative motivation -- a threat of not receiving the same reward next time. ("What pushes you forward, holds you back.")
Telling someone they are smart implies that the teacher has ability to judge smart and stupid students based on their work. So if tomorrow the work is not good enough, the same student could be judged as stupid. This could also happen if the student tries something new, where they obviously cannot have as good results as when they stick with what they already know well.
Telling someone they work hard avoids this danger somehow. Maybe because it contains an actionable advice what to next time to achieve the reward -- so it feels more under control, less threatening.
Maybe the secret is in finding a motivation that feels under control, but not too much to allow cheating. Maybe it's a moving target; I suspect that given enough time, some children in the experiment would find ways to appear working hard without doing the hard work.
Yeah, working hard is something that isn't associated with a fixed mindset in the same way that intelligence is. A lot of people see intelligence as something that you either have or you don't.
That article especially seems to demonstrate the critical importance of choosing what you reinforce, and how your a teacher's model of what they are reinforcing may differ from the students.
My wife, if pulling that kind of stunt, would quickly find that her affections were shunned and her thanks were met with clear contempt (after she was asked politely not to do that the first time). It is almost certainly not in her interests to produce a pavlovian association between her affections and attempts to control me against my wishes. My aversion to hostile takeover of internal motivations is much stronger than my desire for the affections of any particular individual.
This would be entirely different if I had made a prior agreement regarding shirts and hampers. Making it motivationally easier and more enjoyable to do things I am willing to do is to be encouraged.
What would you see as the difference between a) the story described, and b) a wife who kisses her husband because it makes her happy when he does helpful, nice things, of which putting laundry in the hamper is one, and her automatic response to this surge happiness is "thank you, you're an amazing man!" [kiss]? The latter includes most of the same actions on the part of the wife, and probably occurs in a lot of healthy relationships.
Are there some internal motivations that you are less protective of than others? For example, if someone tried to condition me to be less averse to harming people, I would have a pretty big reaction, because that particular internal motivation is sacrosanct to me. But preferences for levels of tidiness...meh. I barely consider that an internal motivation, and definitely not a facet of who I am...it's just a habit, and I don't really care about changing it in either direction.
Is the difference with you that you consider all of your motivations to be a sacrosanct part of who you are? Or just that you place a higher value on your autonomy, and being the one 100% entirely responsible for all of your decisions?
It may be worth sharing, anecdotally, that years ago my husband expressed annoyance with me over the fact that I only ever rubbed his back while he was doing dishes, and it made him feel much like how wedrifid describes.
This utterly bewildered me, so I agreed to pay attention to the behavior and see what was going on. Pretty quickly it became clear to me that this was absolutely true, for reasons I wasn't entirely clear on myself, although my working theory was it was the only time that I'd regularly walk past him while he was hunched over in that particular posture, which apparently served as a "give me a backrub" signal for me, for whatever reason.
My response to this was to start giving him random backrubs at other times, which solved the problem.
My point being that (a) being annoyed by this sort of behavior is not at all unique to wedrifid, and (b) whether the behavior pattern is intentional doesn't necessarily matter very much. (I don't mean to suggest that it doesn't matter to wedrifid; actually, they have made it somewhat clear that it's part of what they're objecting to.)
Well, the whole thing where he is standing up against the sink with his back to you but his hands were busy and he couldn't turn around (to engage in other forms of affection) seems like the obvious guess.
The main lesson I'm taking from your anecdote is "people are complicated, everyone is complicated in a different way, and for almost any action or behaviour X, there will be a person somewhere who finds it awful." It's hard to guess at the relative numbers without doing a poll, but I'm guessing there's a range of people who wouldn't care if their significant other used physical affection as a reward (or who would even like it, because "yay, more total physical affection!"), and there's a range of people who would find it mildly to extremely unpleasant.
Yup, that's consistent with my experience.
I do accept this kind of reinforcement from my significant other, assuming that:
Actually I consider it very useful, and for me it would be a waste not to use this kind of cheap "external willpower". YMMV.
Note that I consider the reinforcement you are describing to be entirely different in kind (not "this kind"). The boundaries around the kind I accept are approximately the same as yours:
I go by what my intuition tells me but when formalizing those intuitions something similar is generated.
I make a point of rewarding desired reinforcement (while attempting 'extinction' on less desirable influence tactics like nagging or punishment.)
I supposed the reason why the husband in the story didn't put his clothes in the hamper was that he was too lazy to do that, not that he (terminally) valued that the clothes stayed outside the hamper.
Having a terminal value for clothes outside the hamper isn't the point. It is whether given the negotiated relationship boundaries and typical behaviors as they currently are the person being modified would prefer "status quo except I do <influenced behavior> more" over "status quo".
"Too lazy" can be left out of such considerations. That doesn't distinguish between akrasia and considered intent not to do the thing (for whatever reason). For most part judgements like "too lazy" are just another method of attempting influence - usually a method that is inferior to reinforcement.
Well, making judgments like "too lazy" can also provide valuable social cover for other kinds of reinforcement (or punishment), within communities where deliberately altering the behavior of others is seen as unacceptable unless I can frame it as being for their benefit.
More generally, motivated speculation about other people's best interests (including but not limited to positing that they possess unexpressed "terminal values" that happen to align better with what I seem to want than with what they seem to want) can be a very useful way to ignore people's stated preferences without feeling (or being seen by third parties as) indebted to them.
Seriously? You'd shun your wife because she said thank you? i.e.
(No, I said I would shun kisses delivered under those circumstances. No cutting and pasting of my keywords for the sake of hyperbole thanks.)
If people use their affection in a way that is obviously intended to systematically manipulate me to do things that I do not, in fact, wish to do then yes, of course those instances of affection I will shun. While I know some people are more tolerant to that kind of blatant disrespect I would expect you to at least be able to comprehend the subset of people that will not.
I'm afraid that all women who want kisses to serve the role of doggy treats within our relationship are out of luck. I have yet to experience a problem with having that policy. My model of myself predicts that rewarding hostile-to-my-interests-reward-training with increased compliance or acceptance would leave me with relationships that were far less satisfying and in particular far less enjoyment of displays of affection.
The phrases "of course" and "blatant disrespect" imply a shared frame of reference that doesn't seem to be in evidence. While it might be considered rude to you, it's pretty much human nature. The phrase "thank you" is, as near as I can tell, pretty much entirely meant as a positive reinforcer.
So, having established that we have different frames of reference, can you go in to WHAT behaviors bother you? Is it the use of specific actions as reinforcers ("thank you" is okay but kissing is not?) or is it just the deliberate (as opposed to socialized and subconscious) application of these techniques? Or something else that I'm missing?
Since positive reinforcement can only be applied after you already do a thing, then presumably, you at least wished to do it once. So, how is providing you with a bonus to something you've already done, manipulating you to do something you don't "wish to do"?
Caveat: I don't know why the husband in question doesn't just put his damn clothes in the hamper. Doesn't the idea of having soiled clothes lying around repulse him anyway? Especially when sharing the space with another. I mean... ewww. But now back to assuming the target behavioral territory is not already granted by the obvious shelling point or prior arrangement.
It seems you wish to unilaterally accept rewarding behavior as positive. I don't. I have no trouble detecting when rewards are being used as "approximations" towards a behavioral landscape that I clearly don't want or, especially, have previously declared that I would not accept. I am also able to predict - by reference to past experience and knowledge of my own preferences - that encouraging that reward pattern gives undesired outcomes. As Vaniver mentioned, an important skill to develop is the ability to detect the difference between desired and undesired manipulations.
As a somewhat separate issue, excessive use of physical affection (kisses, hugs, sex) as a "reward" for good behavior changes the experience of those activities - and not in a good way.
Hm. You quoted a question I asked, and then proceeded to not answer it in any way. The question was:
Instead of answering that question, you supplied various generalizations whose referents in physical reality I can't ascertain. Please give an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don't "wish to do" (your previous words).
Well, I'm not wedrifid, but OK.
Suppose there's a crisis at work, and in response to that crisis I step in and solve a problem.
Suppose, as part of solving that problem, I take some steps (X) that I don't enjoy doing and don't wish to do again.
Suppose my boss notices that I did X and was effective at it and decides that she wants me to do X more regularly, and being familiar with the uses of positive reinforcement decides to hand me a large bonus at our next status meeting. Further, she praises me to the skies in public for having done X, and does so in a way that communicates the (entirely accurate) message that my continuing to receive such praise is contingent on my continuing to do X.
I assert that, in this scenario, my boss is applying positive reinforcement techniques with the goal of increasing my likelihood of doing X, by providing me with a bonus to something I've already done, where X is something I don't wish to do.
Do you agree?
As to whether, in so doing, she's manipulating me... (shrug) I've already had that discussion once too often this week. If our only remaining point of disagreement about that scenario is whether the word "manipulating" properly applies to it, I'm happy to leave that point unresolved.
So? Are you saying this is a bad thing? That's what I'm asking wedrifid. Are you offended by said boss doing this?
Ironically, in your scenario, your boss is actually elevating your status: trying to please you in order to obtain a consent that in principle could be had by simply ordering you to do more X. So I don't think it's analagous to the situation that upsets wedrifid here.
It depends on why TheOtherDave doesn't like doing whatever. If it's something that he could get to like or at least tolerate by being more familiar with it, no biggie.
If it's just aggravating and he doesn't get used to it, but it doesn't come up often enough to make him miserable, then it's one of those things which is apt to happen in jobs.
If it's something that takes so many additional hours that he's running himself ragged, then reinforcing him for doing it would be bad for him in the long run.
So, you asked for "an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don't "wish to do"," and I gave you one.
Apparently, you also wanted an example where the person isn't also elevating my status in the process, isn't trying to please me, and isn't trying to get me to agree to something that they could order me to do. I didn't realize that, sorry.
No, I can't think of any coherent examples where someone tries to use positive reinforcement to alter my behavior by doing something that doesn't please me.
Tapping out now.
As am I. I refer any interested observers to the previous comments by myself, TheOtherDave, Vaniver and others, as well as the details of the originally quoted example, including the emphasis on successive approximation. I expect that everyone who wishes to understand will from existing comments and that further engagement would be both futile and constitute a reward of an interaction style which is undesirable.
Nope, that was a side comment. The main point is that wedrifid said this was a bad thing, and I was asking him. So, it's actually an answer from someone other than wedrifid that didn't meet my criteria. ;-)
Could you elaborate on that? I'm entirely okay with physical affection being used as a "reward", as long as it's also clear that the person genuinely wants affection with me, and initiates it "just because" too (actually I'd probably be entirely okay with a strictly reward-based system of affection, as long as it was explicit...)
You seem to be assuming, in the example, that the husband doesn't WANT to be modified to put away his laundry. Is that correct?
If so, is it correct that your objection is "you're manipulating me in to a state I don't desire" rather than simply "you're manipulating me"? Given that you PERSONALLY find soiled clothes disgusting, would you PERSONALLY appreciate reinforcement that helped you overcome such a habit?
Yes.
Yes.
The question is not whether positive reinforcement is effective in changing your behavior. The question is whether kisses are positive reinforcement in particular contexts.
Suppose your spouse says, "Please pick up my prescription from the store" and you don't want to, but you do it anyway. When you get back, spouse says "Thanks for dealing with that." Do you really think continued experiences like that won't increase the frequency of the behavior "Run an errand even when I don't want to"?
Neither of those seem to be the question - at least neither of those are the question I'm asking when I evaluate whether a given trend of behaviors constitutes a Defection::Manipulation.
That is kind of me and it would all else being equal be somewhat rude if she didn't thank me for doing a favour like that. (This assumes a weak instantiation of 'want' such that I reflectively endorse doing the errand but experience emotional reluctance. If I reflectively endorse not doing the errand but still do then that is not kind but weak.)
Being influenced isn't something to be universally avoided. Having negotiated boundaries subverted by the strategic use of kisses as doggy treats is. That way leads to madness - often for both parties.
For my part, I didn't experience the positive reinforcement description in the article as being about subverting negotiated boundaries, but about changing what seem likely to be unthinking habitual behaviors that the person is barely aware of.
I don't know of anyone that I wish to be associated with who specifically desires to leave dirty clothes on the floor instead of in the hamper, it's just something that is easy to do without thinking unless and until you are in the habit of doing something differently.
If the husband in question had actually negotiated a boundary about being able to leave his clothes on the floor, or even expressed reflective hesitancy about using the hamper as a theoretically desired or acceptable action, then I would agree that the author's behavior was highly unethical, and as the husband, if I became aware of it, I would have a problem.
A more typical scenario is one in which the husband would reflectively endorse putting dirty clothes in the hamper on principle, but has a previously developed habit of leaving clothes on the floor and does not judge it important enough to do the hard mental work of changing the habit. Positive reinforcement in this scenario basically represents the wife attempting to do a big portion of the work required to change the habit in the hopes it will get him over this threshold.
In this case, I am having trouble imagining a situation in which one would have reflective desire not to use an existing hamper for dirty clothes.
Everyone here who has comment on the subject of dirty clothes, myself included, has mentioned that they much prefer to put them in a designated repository. However, the precise nature of the example is not important and precisely where the boundaries of responsibility have been set in someone else's relationship are not my business to determine.
Of course it is not our business to determine those boundaries in someone else's relationship.
Yet my reaction to the behavior described is very largely determined by what I imagine as the relationship context. The reason I did not have your reaction to this story is because I implicitly assumed that there was no boundary the husband had set about the fact of having clothes end up in the hamper by his hands.
I was somewhat troubled by the story, and the conversation in this subthread has clarified why -- the relationship context is crucial to determining the ethics of the behavior, and the ethical line or the necessary context was not discussed seriously in the article. While I find it unlikely that this particular example was crossing a line in their relationship, similar strategies could easily be used in an attempt to cross explicit or implicit boundaries in a way I would find abhorrent.
There is one point on which I am not clear whether we are drawing the line in the same place.
In the absence of any prior negotiation one way or another, do you consider the wife's behavior unethical? That seemed to be what you suggested with your initial comment, that it would only be acceptable in the context of a prior explicit agreement.
I think I fall on the side of thinking it is sometimes acceptable in some possible middle cases, but I'm not completely comfortable with my decision yet and would be interested in hearing arguments on either side.
I am clear (and think you will agree) that it is ok to use this strategy to reinforce a previous agreement, and NOT ok to use it to break/bend/adjust a previous agreement. It is the situation with no prior agreement that I am interested in.
To describe it semi-formally.
Party A wants to use positive reinforcement on party B in order to get them to do X
Middle cases I consider to be important (aside from there being some explicit agreement/boundary)
Party B has given some indication (but not an explicit statement/agreement) that doing X would be acceptable or desirable in principle --- PR OK
Party B has given some indication (not explicit statement/agreement) that doing X would be a undesirable in principle --- PR NOT OK
Party B has given no indication one way or another -- ??
In this last case, are social expectations relevant? In the particular case of clothes in hamper, there are clear social expectations that most people normatively desire clothes in hamper. Perhaps our difference lies in whether we consider social expectations a relevant part of the context.
My tentative line is that where no indication has been given, reinforcing social expectations is acceptable, and violating social expectations is at least dubious and probably not OK without discussion.
If social expectations matter, then questions about which social circle is relevant come into play. If party A and party B would agree about which social expectation is relevant, then that is the correct one.
The interesting subcase would be where the relevant social expectations are different for party A and for Party B. My current position is that party A's best information about what party B would choose as a relevant set of social expectations should determine the ethics.
I seem to have more sympathy for your point of view than most here, but I'm not sure I have the thing articulated.
I think a piece of it is that a kiss given in order to get a spouse to do a routine chore seems very different from a kiss given out of affection or lust.
Intuitively, a kiss given out of enthusiasm for help received seems like a different sort of thing than a kiss given as part of a program to get behavioral change.
From a different context
Would it be different and less risky if the reward were M&Ms rather than kisses? If both partners were using reinforcement schemes on each other? The latter seems to have some comic potential, but in a way that isn't quite coming into focus.
Do diabetes, arteriosclerosis and dental costs count as 'risks'?
EY must be saying lots of nice things if that's a non-negligible risk.
I assume we're talking about something like a dozen M&Ms/day, which wouldn't be a large risk for most people (I agree they'd be a bad idea for diabetics). Unless the person otherwise would eat no sweets at all, I can't see the M&Ms making a difference.
I agree. That said, this is similar to saying that me going to work because they pay me is a different sort of thing than me going to work because I enjoy my job. In practice, the lines between expressions of enthusiasm and attempts to manage behavior are rarely that clearcut.
I think it depends a lot on her intention. If she says 'thank you' for the purposes of positive reinforcement, I mean if she thinks about her 'thank you's' that way, then I think she's being manipulative.
If she says 'thank you' to say what those words mean, namely, that she's grateful, then even if this does have the effective positive reinforcement there's nothing wrong about her behavior.
I find the idea of endorsing manipulative behavior if and only if I remain unaware of the fact that it's manipulative behavior deeply troubling.
It strikes me as similar to saying that hurting people is OK as long as I don't know I'm hurting them. No, it isn't. If hurting people is not OK, then it follows that I ought not hurt people, and learning to recognize when I'm hurting people is part of that, and I ought to learn to recognize it. The behavior doesn't suddenly become "not OK" the moment I learn to recognize it... it never was OK, and now I know it and can improve.
Conversely, if hurting people is OK, then it's OK whether I know I'm doing it or not.
The same goes for manipulating people. Whether I know I'm doing it or not isn't the determiner of whether I'm doing good or ill.
To my mind, the determiner of whether I'm doing good or ill is whether, when I'm done doing it, we're all better off or worse off.
.... And what about helping other people without knowing you helped them? /sly look/
Similarly, if helping people is OK, it's OK whether I know I'm doing it or not, and if it's not OK, it's not OK whether I know I'm doing it or not.
Awareness of side effects isn't equivalent to intentionality. You can thank someone to express genuine feelings of gratitude. If you wouldn't do that in a counterfactual world in which the gratitude was absent, then I wouldn't call that behavior intentionally manipulative regardless of whether you know about positive reinforcement.
Suppose I am not in the habit of expressing gratitude when people do nice things for me. Never mind why... maybe I was raised wrong. For whatever reason, I'm not in that habit. I feel gratitude, certainly, I just don't express it.
Then one Monday, I learn that expressing gratitude to people for doing nice things for me will increase the odds that they will do it again. Suppose I want people to do nice things for me, and I therefore conclude that I ought to expressing gratitude when people do nice things for me, in order to get them to do it more, and I therefore start expressing gratitude when people do nice things for me, whether I feel gratitude or not.
Then on Wednesday, I learn that this only works when I genuinely do feel gratitude... when I express gratitude I don't actually feel, I get bad results. (Again, it doesn't matter why. Maybe I'm a lousy liar.) So I stop expressing gratitude when people do nice things for me when I don't feel gratitude, but I continue doing so when I do, since that still gets me stuff I want.
If I've understood you correctly, you would call me intentionally manipulative on Tuesday, but not on Thursday. I'm happy to restrict the term "intentionally manipulative" to Tuesday behavior and not Thursday behavior, if that makes communication easier, though I don't use those words that way myself.
Regardless of what words we use, presumably we agree that on both Tuesday and Thursday, I am doing something with the intention of causing changes in other people's behavior, and am doing so without their awareness or consent. Yes?
Do you endorse this on Tuesday?
Do you endorse this on Thursday?
For my own part, I find the idea of endorsing that behavior on Thursday but not on Tuesday deeply troubling, for many of the reasons I listed before.
Obvious remark is obvious: you might disapprove of the behavior on Tuesday because it involves lying.
Yes. But maybe there is a correlation that people who know what they are doing, are doing it more.
If that's true, then it would make sense to criticize intentional manipulation more.
Well, only if doing it is worth criticizing in the first place.
I agree with your point, but I think that "manipulate" needs to be tabooed. If we define manipulate as "acts that tend to change the behavior of others" then I agree with your implicit point that it is impossible to interact with others without changing their behaviors, and there is nothing wrong with thinking about how I would like someone else to behave when considering how I interact with them.
That said, there are connotations of manipulate as the word is ordinarily used that are not captured by the way you (and I) are using the word.
Sure. I'm perfectly happy to drop the word altogether and instead talk about changing the behavior of others.
If you don't know you're manipulating someone, you're not manipulating someone. Manipulation is an intentional behavior, like lying, or congratulating, or taking a vow. Knowing what you're doing is part of doing it.
Yeah, I pretty much disagree with this statement completely.
That's... incredible to me. Do you disagree that there is such a category (i.e. actions you have to know you're doing in order to be doing them at all), or that manipulation falls under it?
I disagree that manipulation falls under it.
This exchange may be helpful to understand TheOtherDave's point.
So, I have to ask: do you in fact have a wife?
Some people react quite viscerally to the awareness that another party is trying intentionally to steer their behavior in any way. It seems to just be a massive squick button for some (indeed, I notice that most randomly-selected people who are made aware of explicit attempts to condition behavior react with discomfort at minimum); for others, there seems to be a correlation with triggers gained from abusive interactions earlier in life; a few I knew who reacted strongly showed strong indications of sociopathy and seemed to instinctively feel violated if someone else successfully, or even just obviously, tried to affect their behavior in a deliberate manner toward some end (a normal part of cognition and social interaction for them directed at others).
But treating human beings, especially adults, like animals is characteristically unethical. Applying some system of reinforcement where someone has asked you to effectively treat their behavior is innocuous enough, as is of course treating yourself.
But generally manipulating the behavior of other people by means other than convincing them that they should behave in a certain way seems to me to be almost definitional of a dark art. If that's not controversial, then I think this article should be qualified appropriately: never do this to other people without their explicit consent.
It seems to me like the flow is in the reverse direction: many unethical manipulations involve treating adults like animals. But people who skillfully use positive reinforcement are both more pleasant to be around and more effective- which seems like something ethical systems should point you towards, not away from.
.... And here begins the debate.
What do we do? What do we think about this piece of freaking powerful magic-science?
I vote we keep it a secret. Some secrets are too dangerous and powerful to be shared.
I think the cat is out of the bag on this one.
That's a fair point: I may have been treating a conditional like a bi-conditional. I think my sense of the matter is this: if a friend told me that he spent a lot of our time together thinking through ways to positively reinforce some of my behaviors, even to my benefit, I would become very suspicious of him. I would feel that I'd been treated as a child or a dog. His behavior would seem to me to be manipulative and dishonest, and I think I would feel this way even if I agreed that the results of his actions were on the whole good and good for me.
Do you think this sort of reaction on my part would be misguided? Or am I on to something?
I don't think I would be suspicious of him, as long as I agreed with the behaviours he was trying to reinforce. (I don't know for sure–my reactions are based only on a thought experiment.) I think I would be grateful, both that he cared enough about me to put that much time and effort in, and that he considered me emotionally mature enough to tell me honestly what he was doing.
However, I do think that being aware of his deliberate reinforcement might make it less effective. Being reinforced for Behaviour A would feel less like "wow, the world likes it when I do A, I should do it more!" and more like "Person X wants me to do A", which is a bit less motivating.
Really? So say I tell you that all those times that I smiled at you and asked how you were doing were part of a long term plan to change the way you behave. The next day I smile and ask you how you're doing. Has my confession done nothing to change the way you think about my question?
I'm saying that things like smiles and friendly, concerned questions have a certain importance for us that is directly undermined by their being used for for the purposes of changing our behavior. I don't think using them this way is always bad, but it seems to me that people who generally treat people this way are people we tend not to like once we discover the nature of their kindness.
Like I said, thoughts experiments about "how would I feel if X happened" are not always accurate. However, when I try to simulate that situation in my head, I find that although I would probably think about his smile and question differently (and be more likely to respond with a joke along the lines of "trying to reinforce me again, huh?") I don't think I would like him less.
Anyway, I think I regularly use smiles and "how are you doing?" to change the way people behave...namely, to get strangers, i.e. coworkers at a new job, to start liking me more.
Well, I guess I'll tap out then. I'm not sure how to voice my position at this point.
Your position is that you have a certain emotional response to knowing someone is trying to modify your behaviour. My position is that I have a different emotional response. I can imagine myself having an emotional response like yours...I just don't. (Conversely, I can imagine someone experiencing jealousy in the context of a relationship, but romantic jealousy isn't something I really experience personally.) I don't think that makes either of us wrong.
Well, my position is that doing things like asking how someone is doing so as to reinforce behavior rather than because you want to know the answer is ethically bad. I used the example of the friend to try to motivate and explain that position, but at some point if you are totally fine with that sort of behavior, I don't have very much to argue with. I think you're wrong to be fine with that, but I also don't think I can mount a convimcing argument to that effect. So you've pretty much reached the bottom of my thoughts on the matter, such as they are.
I'm curious about whether your reasons for considering this kind of behaviour "unethical" are consequentialist (i.e. a world where people do X is going to be worse overall than a world where no one does X) or deontological (there are certain behaviours, like lying or stealing, that are just bad no matter what world they take place in, and using social cues to manipulate other people is a behaviour that falls into that class.)
Can you express your personal ethics explicitly and clarify where it comes from?
I think it's misguided personally. You're already being manipulated this way by your environment whether or not you realize it.
Well, I'm claiming that this kind of manipulation is often, even characteristically, unethical. Since my environment is not capable of being ethical or unethical (that would be a category mistake, I think) then that's not relevant to my claim.
But your environment includes people, dude.
This shouldn't be a puzzle. Reinforcement happens, consciously or subconsciously. Why in the name of FSM would you choose to relinquish the power to actually control what would otherwise happen just subconsciously?
How is that not on the face of it a paragon, a prototype of optimization? Isn't that optimizing is, more or less-consciously changing what is otherwise unconscious?
I was referring though to the case of your friend using reinforcement to alter your behavior in a way that would benefit you. I just have a hard time seeing someone trying to help you as an unethical behavior.
That's fair. I should tone down my point and say that doing this sort of thing is disrespectful, not evil or anything. Its the sort of thing parents and teachers do with kids. With your peers, unsolicited reinforcement training is seen as disrespectful because it stands in leau of just explaing to the person what you think they should be doing.
In my experience, telling other people how I think they should behave is also often seen as disrespectful.
Often it is, we agree. But it's the 'telling' there that's the problem. A respectful way to modify someone's behavior is to convince them to do something different (which may mean convincing them to subject themselves to positive reinforcement training). The difference is often whether we appeal to someone's rationality, or take a run at their emotions.
Well this runs into the problem of giving unsolicited advice. Most people don't respond well to that. I think it's probably difficult for most rationalists to remember this since we are probably more open to that.
I agree that there are respectful ways to convince me to do something different, thereby respectfully modifying my behavior.
Many of those ways involve appealing to my rationality.
Many of those ways involve appealing to my emotions.
There are also disrespectful ways to convince me to do something different.
Many of those ways involve appealing to my rationality.
Many of those ways involve appealing to my emotions.
It does depend on whose definition of 'help' they're using.
Good point. Do you think it would be ethical if they were helping to fulfill your preferences?
Usually, yes, though there are several qualifications and corner cases.
Agreed, there probably are.
Oh, you're definitely on to something, and it's something important.
That said, I don't think what you're on to has to do with whether and when it's ethical to manipulate people's behavior.
So what am I on to then?
Roughly, that we often respond to others' ability to cause us harm (whether by modifying our behavior or our bank accounts or our internal organs or whatever other mechanism) as a threat, independent of their likelihood of causing us harm.
So if you demonstrate, or even just tell me about, your ability to do these things, then while depending on the specific context, my specific reaction will be somewhat different... my reaction to you knowing my bank PIN number will be different from my reaction to you knowing how to modify my behavior or how to modify the beating of my heart or how to break into my home... they will all have a common emotional component: I will feel threatened, frightened, suspicious, attacked, violated.
That all is perfectly natural and reasonable. And a common and entirely understandable response to that might be for me to declare that, OK, maybe you are able do those things, but a decent or ethical person never will do those things. (That sort of declaration is one relatively common way that I can attempt to modify your likelihood of performing those actions. I realize that you would only consider that a form of manipulation if I realize that such declarations will modify your likelihood of performing those actions. Regardless, the declaration modifies your behavior just the same whether I realize it or not, and whether it's manipulation or not.)
But it doesn't follow from any of that that it's actually unethical for you to log into my bank account, modify my heartbeat, break into my home, or modify my behavior. To my mind, as I said before, the determiner of whether such behavior is ethical or not is whether the result leaves me better or worse off.
Breaking into my home to turn off the main watervalve to keep my house from flooding while I'm at work is perfectly ethical, indeed praiseworthy, and I absolutely endorse you doing so. Nevertheless, I suspect that if you told me that you spent a lot of time thinking about how to break into my home, I would become very suspicious of you.
Again, my emotional reaction to your demonstrated or claimed threat capacity is independent of my beliefs about your likely behaviors, let alone my beliefs about your likely intentions.
This seems very implausible to me. I often encounter people with the ability to do me great harm (a police officer with a gun, say), and this rarely if ever causes me to be angry, or feel as if my dignity has been infringed upon, or anything like that. Yet these are the reactions typically associated with finding out you've been intentionally manipulated. Do you have some independent reason to believe this is true?
Yes, but no reasons I can readily share. And, sure, I might be wrong.
I agree with you that your autonomy is threatened by the manipulations of others. But threats only sometimes turn into harm- distinguishing between manipulations you agree with and disagree with is a valuable skill.
Indeed, there's a general point that needs to be made about human interaction, and another about status, but first a recommendation: try to view as many of your actions as manipulations as possible. This will help separate out the things that, on reflection, you want to do and the things that, on reflection, you don't want to do. For example:
Emphasis mine. The reaction- of calling his behavior manipulative and dishonest- feels like it punishes manipulation, which you might want to do to protect your autonomy. But it actually punishes honesty, because the trigger was your friend telling you! Now, if your friend wants to change you, they'll need to try to do it subtly. Your reaction has manipulated your friend without his explicit consent- and probably not in the direction you wanted it to.
So, the general point: human social interaction is an incredibly thorny field, in part because there are rarely ways to learn or teach it without externalities. Parents, for example, tell their children to share- not because sharing is an objective moral principle, but because it minimizes conflict. As well, some aspects of human social interaction are zero sum games- in which people who are skilled at interaction will lose if others get better at interaction, and thus discourage discussions that raise general social interaction skills.
The status interpretation: generally, manipulation increases the status of the manipulator and decreases the status of the manipulated. Resistance to manipulation could then be a status-preserving move, and interest in manipulation could be a status-increases move. What articles like this try to do is lower the status effects of manipulation (in both directions)- Luke proudly recounts the time Eliezer manipulated him so that he could better manipulate Eliezer. If being molded like this is seen more positively, then resistance to being molded (by others in the community) will decrease, and the community will work better and be happier. As well, I suspect that people are much more comfortable with manipulations if they know how to do them themselves- if positive reinforcement is a tool used by creepy Others, it's much easier to dislike than if it's the way you got your roommate to finally stop annoying you.
I'm confused, not only by the beginning of this comment, but by several others as well.
I thought being a LessWronger meant you no longer thought in terms of free will. That it's a naive theory of human behavior, somewhat like naive physics.
I thought so, anyway. I guess I was wrong? (This comment still up voted for amazing analysis.)
Autonomy and philosophical free will are different things. Philosophical free will is the question "well, if physical laws govern how my body acts, and my brain is a component of my body, then don't physical laws govern what choices I make?", to which the answer is mu. One does not need volition on the level of atoms to have volition on the level of people- and volition on the level of people is autonomy.
(You will note that LW is very interested in techniques to increase one's will, take more control over one's goals, and so on. Those would be senseless goals for a fatalist.)
Thanks for clarifying that. I should note that I am very interested in techniques for self-improvement, too. I am currently learning how to read. (Apparently, I never knew :( ) And also get everything organized, GTD-style. (It seems a far less daunting prospect now than when I first heard of the idea, because I'm pseudo-minimalist.)
I still am surprised at the average LWers reaction here. Probably because it's not clear to me the nature of 'volition on the level of people'. Not something to expect you to answer, clarifying the distinction was helpful enough.
This, with extra emphasis!
This statement without context is clearly incorrect; there are all sorts of behaviors we can ethically execute with respect to both humans and other animals. I understand that what you and the OP both mean to connote is particular behaviors which we restrict in typical contexts only to non-human animals, but if you're going to label them as unethical when applied to humans it helps to specify what behaviors and context those are.
That's a little more specific, but not too much, as I'm not really sure what you mean by "convincing" here.
That is, if at time T1 I don't exhibit behavior B and don't assert that I should exhibit B, and you perform some act A at T2 after which I exhibit B and assert that I should exhibit B, is A an act of convincing me (and therefore OK on your account) or not (and therefore unethical on your account)? How might I test that?
This, on the other hand, is clear. Thank you.
I disagree with it strongly.
That story doesn't trouble you at all?
For most people, there's lots of low hanging fruit from trying to recognize when they are reinforcing and punishing behaviors of others. Also, positive reinforcement is more effective at changing behavior than positive punishment.
But that doesn't mean that we should embrace conditioning-type behavior-modification wholesale. I'm highly doubtful that conditioning responses are entirely justifiable by decision-theoretic reasons. And "not justifiable by decision theoretic reasons" is a reasonable definition of non-rational. Which implies that relying on those types of processes to change others behaviors might be unethical.
Does it trouble me at all? I suppose. Not a huge amount, but some. Had Esar said "Doing this to people without their consent is troubling" rather than "never do this to other people without their explicit consent" I likely wouldn't have objected.
My response to the rest of this would mostly be repeating myself, so I'll point to here instead.
More generally, "conditioning-type behavior-modification" isn't some kind of special category of activity that is clearly separable from ordinary behavior. We modify one another's behavior through conditioning all the time. You did it just now when you replied to my comment. Declaring it unethical across the board seems about as useful as saying "never kill a living thing."
You seem to know what I mean, so I won't go into a buch of unnecessary qualifications.
Not necessarily. Is the meaning of 'convince' really unclear? Threatening someone with a gun seems to satisfy your description, but it's obviously not a case of convincing. I'm not sure what you're unclear about.
If you care to explain why, please do so.
Sure.
The easiest way to get at it is with an example.
Suppose I decide I want my coworkers to visit my desk more often at work, and therefore begin a practice of smiling at everyone who visits, keeping treats on my desk and inviting visitors to partake, being nicer to people when they visit me at my desk than I am at other times, and otherwise setting up a schedule of differential reinforcement designed to increase the incidence of desk-visiting behavior, and I do all of that without ever announcing to anyone that I'm doing it or why I'm doing it, let alone securing anyone's consent. (Let alone securing everyone's consent.)
Do you consider that an example of unethical behavior? I don't.
Now, maybe you don't either. Maybe it's "obviously" not an example of manipulating the behavior of other people by means other than convincing them that they should behave in a certain way. I don't really know, since you've declined to clarify your constraints. But it sure does seem to match what you described.
You're right that this doesn't seem quite unethical, but it is awfully creepy and I'm not sure how to pull my intuitions apart there. Sitting across from someone who is faking affection and smiles and pleasantries so as to manipulate my behavior would cause me to avoid them like the plague.
In professional environments I find this happens all the time, and when the fake friendliness is discovered as such, the effect reverses considerably. If it's terribly important to something's being effective that the person you're doing it to doesn't know what's going on, it's probably bad.
I think it's false to suggest that pleasantries are being outright faked. This person is probably not sitting there going, "Oh, woe is me, I have to pay the horrible price of smiling and being nice to these imbeciles in order to make them give me what I want; I would never do that otherwise." In fact, why would he even want his coworkers to visit his desk more if he had such utter contempt for them that he had to fake affection wholesale?
Rather, like many people, there's a part of him which would probably like to be a nicer person overall, but he can't always bring himself to live up to the ideal. "People will visit my desk more" is a good immediate incentive to be a better person. The coworker who wants more people to visit their desk is also affected by the results of his own behavior. He'll probably be happier because of the visitations, and his happiness would cause him to smile more, and the very act of smiling would make him even more happy. After a while the "initial motivation," whether it was 100% selfish "I want people to visit my desk more; damn their own desires" or the 100% altruistic "I want to manipulate myself into being a nicer person," or, more likely, a mixture of the two, has faded away, and all that remains is the slightly modified, more pleasant person.
I don't understand how using friendly behavior to reinforce people visiting one's desk precludes that behavior being genuine. You seem to be dismissing the possibility that the person in question feels real affection, and is smiling because they are in fact happy that their desk is being visited. Just because they are using their (real) positive response to coworkers visiting their desk as positive reinforcement doesn't mean that their behavior is "fake" in any way.
Just like a woman who feels a surge of affection towards her husband when he puts away the laundry, and kisses or praises him.
Yes, it's positive reinforcement, but it's also a genuine response.
(nods) Absolutely. I could have also framed it to make it seem far creepier, or to make it seem significantly less creepy.
In particular, the use of loaded words like "faking" and "manipulate" ups the creepy factor of the description a lot. The difference between faking affection and choosing to be affectionate is difficult to state precisely, but boy do we respond to the difference between the words!
I agree that most activities which depend on my ignorance for their effectiveness are bad. I even agree that a higher percentage of activities which depend on my ignorance for their effectiveness are bad than the equivalent percentage of activities that don't so depend.
That said, you seem to be going from that claim to the implicit claim that they are bad by virtue of depending on my ignorance. That's less clear to me.
You and Esar both: Taboo 'creepy'? Particularly with an eye to 'why is it important that this situation evokes this emotion'?
Well, I think it's important because IMHO that negative emotional response is what underlies the (incorrect) description of the corresponding behavior as unethical. But I expect Esar would find that implausible.
'Taboo with an eye to this question', not 'answer this question'. I'd already noticed the pattern that people consider finding something creepy to be sufficient reason to label it unethical, but that observation isn't useful for very much beyond predicting other peoples' labeling habits.
Oh, I see.
Sorry, misunderstood.
I could replace "creepy" everywhere it appears with "emotionally disquieting", but I'm not sure what that would help. I figured using the same language Esar was using would be helpful, but I may well have been wrong.
I'll put it simply: if someone asks me about my kids, neither to be polite nor because they care, but because they want to change the way I behave, then they're (in most cases) being manipulative and insincere. While perhaps they're not wronging me, per se, it's certainly not something that speaks well of them, ethically speaking. If you find this controversial, then you surprise me.
It would be bad advice, I think, to encourage people to use positive reinforcement on others when their ignorance is necessary for it to be effective. Not just practically bad advice, as people are pretty good at picking up on fake friendliness. But full stop ethically damaging advice, if taken seriously. I'm not saying that every such case is going to be unethical, but I'm not in the business of lawlike ethical principles anyway.
No, what I said was that behaviors which depend on someone's ignorance for their effectiveness are often also bad behaviors. I didn't say anything one way or the other about a stricter relation between the two properties, but I'll say now that I don't think they're unrelated.
What do you think being polite is?
I agree that asking you about your kids solely to change your behavior is manipulative.
I also agree that it's insincere. (Which is an entirely distinct thing.)
I would also say that asking you about your kids solely to be polite is insincere.
I would not agree that any of these are necessarily unethical.
I am not quite sure what you mean by "ethically damaging advice."
I agree with you that it's not always unethical to positively reinforce others without their knowledge.
I would agree that "Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a good thing to do, do it constantly" is advice that, if taken seriously, would often lead me to perform unethical acts. I can accept calling it unethical advice for that reason, I suppose.
But I also think that "Positively reinforcing others without their knowledge is a bad thing to do, never do it." is unethical advice in the same (somewhat unclear) sense.
I agree that behaviors that depend on others' ignorance are often also bad behaviors.
Behaviors that depend on others' knowledge are also often bad behaviors.
Agreed on all counts. In fact, it doesn't look like we disagree at all, judging from your comment.
Oh good!
When you started out by saying "never do this," I concluded otherwise.
I'm pleased to discover I was wrong.
I've noticed in pilates classes with one specific teacher you get positive feedback in one specific situation - when you're having trouble, and have just barely managed something basic. This leads to the association that whenever you get positive comments you know you're doing badly.
Yeah, there's kind of a perceptual/patternmatching arms race going on there -- if you're too blatant about it, or the intended recipient of the reinforcement is just that perceptive, then they're reading the script too and it won't have the intended result. It could backfire (as in your example; semantically-positive reinforcement becomes pragmatically-negative), or send undesirable information ("you wouldn't have put it that way unless something were up, and that gives me a clue"), or open you to counter social-engineering scripts if the part knows what they're doing.
If that's the case (and it seems like it is), then reinforcing yourself is going to be almost impossible, because you will by definition know the reinforcement script.
Reinforcing effort only in combination with poor performance wasn't the intent. Pick a better criterion that you can reinforce with honest self-praise. You do need to start off with low enough standards so you can reward improvement from your initial level though.
In my case I'm not terribly perceptive, but there's a lot of repetition of the same situation to give you a clue.
Thank you Luke for this beautifully written post.
A while ago I saw a kindly waitress give my friend's two year old daughter a small cookie in a restaurant. Various emotions flickered across her tiny face, and then she made a decision, accompanied by a small smile.
She broke the cookie into three pieces and gave them to her brothers. Completely unprompted.
I couldn't believe my eyes. I asked my friend, who is a lecturer in experimental psychology, whether altruism was normal amongst very young siblings.
He looked a bit smug and said "Well we put a lot of reinforcement into that."
I hadn't really thought about what that meant until now. Your clear writing has made it obvious.
As a result of your post, I think I'm going to try deliberately modifying some of my own behaviours this way, and maybe try the techniques on some friends. (The first time, by the way, that I've changed my behaviour as a result of reading less wrong, rather than just treating it as philosophical crack.)
For friends it seems that sincere praise / avoiding criticism would be good, but what would you recommend as rewards to self? I'm pretty sure that nicotine and pizza slices would work for me, but I'm also sure that those aren't things I want to do more of.
Don't underestimate the power of praise as a self-reward. It feels really goofy to explicitly praise myself -- especially to do it out loud -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
IME, the biggest problem with self-reward, whatever the mechanism, is that it requires quite a lot of discipline to differentially reward the thing I want to reinforce at all consistently.
The only time I ever really maintained that discipline for any length of time was when I was recovering from brain damage, when continued focus on self-improvement was the single most important thing in my life for about 18 months. In my real life, I just don't care that much. YMMV.
Recruiting allies to reward me works better for me.
M&Ms, one piece at a time -- they are small enough. (It would probably be good if you stop eating them in all other circumstances, but that is not big sacrifice.)
Or try a symbolic reward. For example put on your table two glass boxes, put 100 stones in first one, and every time you want to reward yourself, move one stone from the first box to the second one, and congratulate yourself on progress. When all stones are in the second box, give yourself a big reward (pizza or whatever), change the boxes, and start again. (This way the reward is still linked to pizza, but it is less pizza. And you see your progress all the time.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing
This is getting creepy.
LWers do many cultish things, but I think it's safe to say that's not one of them.
How many?
At least 3:
Specifically: foster a distrust of what outsiders say, quotes a lot of stuff by a self-appointed charismatic leader, and emphasize a single solution (rationality) for a large number of problems.
Notable also are the large number of cultish things LWers don't do, such as aggressive recruiting (or really, any recruiting at all).
I wouldn't exactly call Eliezer a self appointed leader. The community basically accreted around him. If he disavowed being the leader, I think we'd say he was being dishonest or fooling himself.
Not that this is a distinction from cults, the same would probably be true of most of them, I just think it's not quite accurate as a characterization.
Oh, also I think most cult leaders probably have more charisma off the internet.
Oh, probably. I hear Luke has more real-life charisma... Though he kind of kills the "fosters a distrust of outside sources" with the amount he cites outside sources.
Quite a lot of charisma, but nothing near the level a cult leader would need to pull off a personality cult. (Although he could probably make up for this if he really wanted to by spending a few weeks reading up research on cult formation then applying it systematically as a 'how to' guide.)
I would like to see Lukeprog post an article on that topic. It would be fascinating.
Fascinating but suboptimal signalling.
If this genuinely looks like love bombing then it could be an indication that you need more affection in your life to recalibratethe the base rate.
You realize that almost all people express appreciation or displeasure routinely, right? It's a normal and reasonable part of human interaction, and it's a skill that someone can try to improve without needing to feel too conflicted. Love bombing is far more extreme than anything that this post even touched on. So, while we're linking to things, here's one:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/md/cultish_countercultishness/
Love bombing is just a tool -- its morality depends on how it is used. In a typical situation it is used to ruin the person's natural resistance towards groups that exploit them; that is obviously evil.
A different thing would be to use love bombing with the person's explicit consent, as a reinforcement for things the person values, and for nothing else. Preferably for a limited time specified in advance. It could be a great tool to overcome akrasia.
That sounds even more creepy. I like it.
Thanks for pointing out this particular low-hanging fruit.
I wonder if they had just (re-)watched this Big Bang Theory episode.
Hmm, I better keep this in mind at all times when dealing with my family.
It's probably worth noting that the original article, which lukeprog quoted, ended with this:
Given the many asymmetries between men and women, it seems at least plausible to me that the above would be much more problematic than the original.
It also seems plausible that the reverse is true. Or neither.