Post-translational modification of proteins is involved in some types of memory. Sustained post-translational modifications are likely to involve changes in gene expression. Otherwise, the system would not be very robust.
Changes in gene expression are likely to involve changes in the cell's epigenome.
Even if the post-translational modifications are gone after you replace water with cryoprotectant, the epigenome might be still stable. This would allow you to see what the changes in gene expression were. So, you might be able to tell what the memory was.
This is not a new idea. Ben Best:
Considering that the structure and function of Aplysia neurons are so similar to vertebrate neurons, it seems quite plausible that memory is stored by increasing synapses, increasing active zones and increasing transmitter vesicles at selected neurons in the brain — although we must await definitive proof. Assuming that memory is stored by this means, it seems unlikely that cryonics procedures could be perfected well-enough to preserve short-term memory, but avoiding structural damage to synapses and the active zones of synapses may be adequate to preserve long-term memory. It is probably even more important to preserve the state of the transcription regulator proteins in the neuron nucleus — such preservation may be adequate for reconstruction even if the synapses and active zones are lost. It may be even more difficult to reconstruct the state of the transcription regulator proteins from the number of synapses and active zones. The "redundancy" of information may be very valuable where there is partial destruction of both the transcription regulator proteins and the synapses.
You also say:
Is either meaningless or flawed, probably both
It could definitely be flawed. We don't know. That's why I used two conditionals in the sentence you quoted.
The whold post reminds me of the idea on LessWrong that one might as well just assume Omega will reconstruct you based on trace evidence in the physical world.
What part of
It's also important to stress that this only occurs under ideal conditions. Given the current practice of cryonics, cryoprotectant will not reach many or most areas of the brain. In these cases, there is a large amount of ice damage and the information is much more likely to be irretrievable.
did you not get?
I have little idea what it is trying to argue.
My main point is that kalla724 is too pessimistic about cryonics. We don't have a lot of answers to important questions and therefore can't say with so much confidence (p = 10^-22) either way.
My main point is that kalla724 is too pessimistic about cryonics. We don't have a lot of answers to important questions and therefore can't say with so much confidence (p = 10^-22) either way.
Saw a recent youtube with Aubrey De Grey where he expressed confidence in cryonics, and said a lot of recent progress had been made.
As for p=10^-22, that's an unserious number. That can only come about analytically, premised on your assumptions. Ask yourself which assumptions, proven false, would overturn your conclusions. Are you confident in them with p>1-10^...
About a month ago kalla724 posted a number of comments on this post, many of which were highly upvoted.
Synopsis: I) I think that kalla724 is too pessimistic about the practice of cryopreservation to preserve personal identity, because we don't know what level of synapse/active zone/protein structure is preserved in human brains, and we also don't know what level is required for personal identity. II) I think kalla724 is wrong about the required detail necessary to simulate a C. elegans. This is testable in the relatively near-term, and the results of that test might yield insight into whose argument in point I is stronger.
I
kalla724's main argument: it is not possible (p = 10^-22) that cryonics will preserve personal identity, because replacing water with cryoprotectant will cause too much damage to proteins and lipids in the brain.
My view is that kalla724 is too pessimistic. To find a specific example to expand upon this intuition, I searched for "c elegans memory". I chose one of the first reviews in the results: http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/17/4/191.full, published in 2010 by Ardiel and Rankin. Here's their first example:
The specific neurons mediating this are known:
Through more science, they found that:
There is some evidence for how the short-term component of the tap-withdrawal response plasticity. This is it:
This means that the complexes of proteins, working together, add phosphate groups to themselves as a post-translational modification. Each individual complex functions as a potassium ion channel, so changing its structure can alter the excitability of the cell.
Whether vitrification will preserve this specific post-translational modification is, as far as I know, an open question. The current cryoprotectant solution, M22, is pretty physiologic, which means that it functions similarly to water. But, we don't have this data.
It's likely that when the protein complex undergoes autophosphorylation, other changes occur in the cell as well. If this led to changes in the cell's epigenome, which is very common, and the structure of the epigenome is retained by the cryopreservation, then the cell's epigenome could allow reverse inference of the state of its ion channels. We also don't have this data.
The authors also discuss evidence for the long-term component of the tap-withdrawal response plasticity:
This means that the number and distribution of a well characterized protein at the synapses of cells is highly correlated with the strength of the memory. This is consistent with current paradigms of long-term memory.
Under ideal cryopreservation conditions, synaptic vesicles and receptor distributions are likely retained, even if some of the proteins may be a bit denatured. The data is far from perfect here, either.
It's also important to stress that this only occurs under ideal conditions. Given the current practice of cryonics, cryoprotectant will not reach many or most areas of the brain. In these cases, there is a large amount of ice damage and the information is much more likely to be irretrievable.
II
kalla724 says:
kalla724's requirement is that we look at live C. elegans to simulate them. But, the evidence above indicates a good correlation between AMPA receptor distribution and tap-withdrawal reflex. And there is good reason to believe that these features are retained by vitrification under ideal conditions.
So, it seems to me that if you were to emulate a particular C elegans, you could add more receptors (or just up the strength parameter) at those synapses, and thus mimic the plasticity of the tap-withdrawal reflex. Looking at live animals would not be required.
One more note:
Extrapolating results on personal identity from C. elegans to humans is not ideal. If the results are biased in one direction, we should expect more redundancy in mammalian neural systems than there are in nematode ones, because mammals have so many more brain cells.
Edit 6/15: fixed format of quotes.
Edit 6/16: added synopsis to clarify main points.