nyan_sandwich comments on Why Academic Papers Are A Terrible Discussion Forum - Less Wrong

25 Post author: alyssavance 20 June 2012 06:15PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (54)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: lukeprog 20 June 2012 06:46:39PM *  24 points [-]

My reply, in the context of Singularity Institute research:

academic papers are a terrible way to discuss Friendly AI

Almost all FAI discussion happens outside of papers. It happens on mailing lists, forums like Less Wrong, email threads, personal conversations, etc. Yesterday I had a three hour discussion about FAI with Eliezer, Paul Christiano, and Anna Salamon where we covered more ground than we possibly could in a 20-page paper because there's so much background material that we all agree on but hasn't been written up. Nobody is waiting around for papers to come out to advance FAI theory; that's not what papers are for.

The time lag is huge

Most SI papers borrow heavily from material that originated from mailing list discussions or LW posts, and most peer-reviewed SI publications are posted in preprint version when they are written instead of months later when they are published by the academic publisher.

Most academic publications are inaccessible outside universities

All SI publications are published on our website, which is open to everyone. Same goes for all of Nick Bostrom's papers.

Virtually no one reads most academic publications.

Not via the journals and academic books themselves, no. That's why SI and FHI publish their papers to our own websites, where they are read by far more people than read them in the journals themselves.

It's very unusual to make successful philosophical arguments in paper form. I honestly can't think of a single instance where I was convinced of an informal, philosophical argument through an academic paper.

Don't generaltize from one example. I'm slowly surveying a good chunk of the "player characters" in the x-risk reduction space, and a good chunk of them were hugely influenced by Eliezer's two GCR chapters or by Bostrom's Astronomical Waste.

Papers don't have prestige outside a narrow subset of society.

But we care unusually much about that narrow subset of society. Also, I don't write papers so much for prestige as for the fact that it forces me to write in a way that is unusually clear, well-referenced (so that people can check what other people are saying about each individual element), well-structured, careful, and so on. In contrast, people read the Hanson-Yudkowsky debate and there are 5 different ways to interpret every other paragraph and no references by which to check anything and they have no idea what to think.

Getting people to read papers is difficult.

Not as hard as getting them to read The Sequences. Also, many of the people we care about (e.g. me) find it easier to read papers than to read a few blog posts, because papers tend to be clearer written and point the reader to related sources.

Academia selects for conformity.

No problem; there are plenty of journals that are likely to publish the kinds of papers SI publishes, and some already have.

What has been successful, so far, at bringing new people into our community? I haven't analyzed it in depth, but whatever the answer is, the priors are that it will work well again.

As said previously, most FAI discussion still happens outside of papers, but in fact it turns out that several important people did come through Eliezer's and Bostrom's papers.

it's important to note that our current ideas about Friendly AI ... were not developed through papers, but through in-person and mailing list discussions (primarily).

Same goes for all new areas of research. They're developed in person and on mailing lists long before they end up in journal articles.

Academic moderation is both very strict and badly run.

This is sometimes a problem, sometimes not. Communications of the ACM might reject the paper Nick Bostrom and I wrote for it because it's too philosophical and we don't have the space to respond to all common objections. So we may end up publishing it somewhere else. But with my two TSH chapters, all that happened was that I got a bunch of feedback, some of it useful and some of it not, so I incorporated the useful feedback and ignored the useless feedback and published significantly improved papers as a result. Other people I've spoken to about this have reported a similar spread of experiences.

Also see two of my previous posts on the topic, neither of which I agree with anymore: How SIAI could publish in mainstream cognitive science journals and Reasons for SIAI to not publish in mainstream journals.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 June 2012 05:39:08AM 3 points [-]

All SI publications are published on our website, which is open to everyone.

In PDF form. As far as trivial inconveniences go, the jump from html to pdf is nearly as debilitating as a paywall.

If you could publish in web-served html as well, that would be super cool. Much more pleasant to read (accessability, font, reflow), much easier to link, less hoops and bandwidth. If your papers have served html versions, they are not obvious.

It is incredibly embarrasing to admit being regularly defeated by something being .pdf instead of .html.

Comment author: lukeprog 26 June 2012 06:45:13PM 4 points [-]

As far as trivial inconveniences go, the jump from html to pdf is nearly as debilitating as a paywall

It's not "nearly as debilitating as a paywall" for most people. And many people prefer pdf to html, including jsteinhardt and myself.

I had my LaTeX team look into what it would cost to generate well-formatted HTML versions of our papers, and it doesn't seem worth it on the present margin. But at a larger funding level it clearly would be.

Comment author: thomblake 26 June 2012 07:16:40PM 1 point [-]

It's not "nearly as debilitating as a paywall" for most people.

I find that surprising. Is this based on a study or something?

If I click a link and it leads to a pdf my reaction is usually something like "Ack Abort ABORT!!!" and then I won't download the pdf unless it's something that I really need - the sort of thing I would also likely pay for. Even then I'd in most cases prefer to see it in any other format.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 June 2012 10:55:50PM 2 points [-]

When I click on a PDF link, my web browser opens the PDF in another tab. It's a quick and easy way to view PDFs without downloading them onto my hard drive. If you have an aversion to downloading PDFs but would still like to read them, then you may want to enable that feature in your web browser.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2012 06:26:28PM 1 point [-]

For some reason the PDF reader plug-in in my browser doesn't work as well as my stand-alone PDF reader (though they're both from Adobe), so I still prefer to download them.

Comment author: thomblake 27 June 2012 12:43:16PM 0 points [-]

It's a quick and easy way to view PDFs without downloading them onto my hard drive.

Just FYI, when you click a link and view content, that content has been downloaded onto your hard drive, even if you only see it on a browser window..

you may want to enable that feature in your web browser.

The browser PDF readers are even worse than standalone Adobe Acrobat (especially in Chrome, which is my primary web browser).

I'd rather just not support the use of such a broken file format.

Comment author: Rain 27 June 2012 03:52:18PM *  1 point [-]

The browser PDF readers are even worse than standalone Adobe Acrobat (especially in Chrome, which is my primary web browser).

My opinion is the opposite, to the point I've set Chrome as my default program for PDFs, even those on my local hard drive. IIRC, it's based on the open source Foxit reader.

Comment author: thomblake 27 June 2012 04:58:21PM 0 points [-]

Chrome's PDF reader is missing a lot of features. Notably, no page numbers / jump to page.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2012 03:30:40PM -1 points [-]

Really? I thought viewing it in my browser is more akin to streaming a video. But I could easily be wrong about that.

Ah, okay. I use Firefox with an Adobe Acrobat plugin. Not familiar at all with Chrome and other PDF readers.

Comment author: thomblake 27 June 2012 03:40:08PM 0 points [-]

I thought viewing it in my browser is more akin to streaming a video.

The difference is minor. FWIW, a better analogy might be downloading a video file to your browser's temp directory and then opening it in VLC to watch while it's still downloading.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2012 03:44:37PM -1 points [-]

Gotcha. Thank you for the correction.

Comment author: jsteinhardt 26 June 2012 10:08:10AM *  1 point [-]

For the record, I much prefer PDF.

Edit: and it shouldn't be inconvenient, at least on my computer PDF auto-download and open when you visit a link to a PDF file.