easier to maintain discipline (to keep the class quiet and make sure everyone is really doing the exercises)? I think both these effects are helpful

I realize and confess that my sentiments are unusual, that my thinking on this subject is grossly distorted by ideology and therefore not to be trusted, and that I don't myself know how to set up a learning environment that will actually work for actual children, but I must beg the community's forgiveness, because I want to say this anyway: I think this ideal of "discipline" causes tremendous harm (which of course I understand is not to say that it doesn't also have benefits, but those benefits are not the subject of this comment). I consider it a monstrous tragedy that so many millions of people grow up (as I grew up) without any conceptual distinction between learning important things and being enrolled in a school and obeying the commands of the designated "teacher", with no idea of there being a difference between morality and obedience.

Personally, I've mostly recovered from this phenomenon to my satisfaction. I now have an explicit notion that it is morally righteous to learn great ideas and train useful skills, and some experience of the pleasures and satisfactions to be had from these endeavors---which is not to boast that I'm doing well; I would never be so delusionally arrogant as to think that I'm doing well---but I think I'm doing far better than I was before I learned these ideas. It certainly seems so when I contrast myself to my fellow undergraduate students. Last semester at community college, I witnessed a student passionately arguing with an instructor that surely his paper deserved an A- rather than a B+. (I'm given to understand this is not an uncommon occurrence.) I imagine there are many who would take such incidents as evidence that there's not nearly enough discipline in "our" schools: how insolent of a mere student to argue with an instructor! I, however, draw a different moral. I wanted to cry out to the student: Don't you see how silly this is? Your work, your creation is already good or already bad, no matter what letter the instructor writes on it afterwards! But perhaps it was I who was being silly. The student, of course, didn't care about good writing; he just wanted to get into the University of California at Berkeley. That was the highest goal he had been trained to aspire to, from the days when his elementary-school caretakers rewarded him for being quiet and doing what all the other children were doing. Again, I do not claim that I know how society should be organized; any particular reform or revolution I might propose could very well just make things worse. But can I at least say that it's sad to see entire generations of human minds systematically crippled in this way?---because it's sad.

[Slightly edited from original version]