Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on Negative and Positive Selection - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (262)
Fair enough on the medical school thing, but is this really a serious barrier in something like physics? How hard is it for a talented researcher to learn to write a technical, scholarly document in a timely fashion? Do you know of any good, hard working scientific talents denied access to resources because of their writing ability? Because I know lots and lots of mediocre researchers who are nevertheless perfectly adequate scholarly authors. It doesn't seem like a demanding filter. In my experience most journal articles are terribly written (much worse than your sequences, for example), so the standards can't be that high.
For many people, writing is hard even if they are good at math. It is why Verbal and Mathematical SAT scores do not perfectly correlate. It's a different talent, and it will indeed filter people who don't happen to have it. Even bad writing is hard - and if you can't bear to write badly and don't have the talent to write well, it's much much worse. It filters people who want to do their jobs well and don't happen to possess author talent, because they'll revise, and revise, and revise, staring at their work and feeling the dreadful pain of how bad it is... yes, it's a needless filter!
I asked a professor about this. She's works at the University of Chicago, in philosophy, but she's friends with a math professor she met as a grad student at Berkeley. Here's what she said, so far as I remember it:
I asked if this caused math talent to go to waste:
So what I took away from this was 1) I was wrong in thinking that math departments don't care about math-extrinsic skills. 2) I was wrong to think these don't filter people out. It hadn't occurred to me that there is more mathematical talent than there is money to develop it. It seems like the problem with academia is kind of just a lack of funding.
EDIT: I might as well add that, needless to say, writing ability was considered important to philosophy too, and a filter at every level, but that's not surprising. She didn't have anything to tell me about physics.
As it happens, a few months ago I saw an interesting paper examining the consequence of the fall of Soviet Russia and the subsequent exodus of top Russian mathematicians (with all their unique results and methods, obscure to the West) into the US. The upshot was that the effect was to push out of academia a lot of lower-ranked American mathematicians - it turned out to be a zero-sum environment... "The Collapse of the Soviet Union and the Productivity of American Mathematicians"
Wow. This is how I feel about my own writing, expressed more clearly than I could myself. I take ages to write a single sentence because none of the phrasings my brain suggests sound like the kind of thing that I'd want to read.
If you wish to write despite this struggle, I recommend breaking writing into two tasks: dumping and editing. Basically, force yourself to ignore the "kind of thing I'd want to read" feeling for as long as it takes to generate a bunch of sentences. Then you can turn those sentences into readable sentences, in editing.
This handy page will make it significantly easier to ignore the editing urge.
I think I should ask for empirical input at this point: is it your experience that good mathematicians or scientists are filtered out of academic advancement and access to research money and materials as a result of a poor showing in skills extrinsic to their field? By 'extrinsic' I mean skills that are neither necessary nor sufficient to do mathematical or scientific work well.
Well, it's needless only if bad writing turns out to actually not interfere with their ability to do their jobs well... e.g., if their job doesn't involve communicating clearly, or if it does but the way their writing is bad doesn't interfere with clear communication.