private_messaging comments on An Intuitive Explanation of Solomonoff Induction - Less Wrong

53 Post author: Alex_Altair 11 July 2012 08:05AM

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Comment author: private_messaging 09 July 2012 09:42:29AM *  -1 points [-]

We can already do MWI vs Collapse without being clear on F=ma. MWI is not even considered because MWI does not output a string that begins with the observed data, i.e. MWI will never be found when doing Solomonoff induction. MWI's code may be a part of correct code, such as Copenhagen interpretation (which includes MWI's code). Or something else may be found (my bet is on something else because general relativity). It is this bloody simple.

The irony is, you can rule MWI out with Solomonoff induction without even choosing the machine or having a halting oracle. Note: you can't rule out existence of many worlds. But MWI simply does not provide the right output.

Comment author: Kawoomba 09 July 2012 08:07:27PM 2 points [-]

Why are his comments in this thread getting downvoted? They show a quite nuanced understanding of S. I. and raise interesting points.

If there is no requirement for the observed data to be at the start of the string that is output, then the simplest program that explains absolutely everything that is computable is this:

Print random digits. (This was actually a tongue-in-cheek Schmidhuber result from the early 2000s, IIRC. The easiest program whose output will assuredly contain our universe somewhere along the line.)

Luckily there is such a requirement, and I don't know how MWI could possibly fit into it. This unacknowledged tension has long bugged me, and I'm glad someone else is aware of it.

Comment author: Steve_Rayhawk 10 July 2012 09:24:50AM *  17 points [-]

He identifies subtleties, but doesn't look very hard to see whether other people could have reasonably supposed that the subtleties resolve in a different way than he thinks they "obviously" do. Then he starts pre-emptively campaigning viciously for contempt for everyone who draws a different conclusion than the one from his analysis. Very trigger-happy.

This needlessly pollutes discussion... that is to say, "needless" in the moral perspective of everyone who doesn't already believe that most people who first appear wrong by that criterion that way in fact are wrong, and negligently and effectively incorrigibly so, such that there'd be nothing to lose by loosing broadside salvos before the discussion has even really started. (Incidentally, it also disincentivizes the people who could actually explain the alternative treatment of the subtleties from engaging with him, by demonstrating a disinclination to bother to suppose that their position might be reasonble.) This perception of needlessness, together with the usual assumption that he must already be on some level aware of other peoples' belief in that needlessness but is disregarding that belief, is where most of the negative affect toward him comes from.

Also, his occasional previous lack of concern for solid English grammar didn't help the picture of him as not really caring about the possibility that the people he was talking to might not deserve the contempt for them that third parties would inevitably come away with the impression that he was signaling.

(I wish LW had more people who were capable of explaining their objections understandably like this, instead of being stuck with a tangle of social intuitions which they aren't capable of unpacking in any more sophisticated way than by hitting the "retaliate" button.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 July 2012 02:23:50PM 2 points [-]

Were capable of and bothered to, I suppose. I rarely bother to explain the reasons for my value judgments unless I'm specifically asked, and sometimes not even then. Especially not when it comes to value judgments of random people on the Internet. Low-value Internet interactions are fungible.

Comment author: thomblake 10 July 2012 03:02:20PM 3 points [-]

private_messaging is a troll. Safely assume bad faith.

Comment author: shminux 10 July 2012 06:48:22PM *  2 points [-]

private_messaging is a troll

Wikipedia:

a troll is someone who posts inflammatory extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

Let's see:

  • inflammatory: check
  • extraneous: sometimes, not in this case
  • off-topic: not exactly
  • intent to provoke/disrupt: not in my estimation

so, maybe 25-30% trollness.

Safely assume bad faith.

I never get this impression from his posts. They seem honest (if sometimes misguided) not malicious to me.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 July 2012 06:57:13PM 0 points [-]

Can you say more about how you distinguish messages intended to provoke emotional response from those that are merely inflammatory?

Comment author: shminux 10 July 2012 09:14:41PM 1 point [-]

Intent makes a difference for me. private_messaging seems to want to get his point across (not counting an occasional rant), without regard to the way his comments come across. I did not detect any intent of riling people up for its own sake.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 July 2012 09:16:07PM 1 point [-]

(nods) That's fair. Thanks for the clarification.

Comment author: shminux 09 July 2012 08:36:21PM 1 point [-]

I suspect that others downvote private_messaging because of his notoriety. I did downvote his comment because he strayed away from my explicit (estimate the complexity of the Newton's 2nd law) request and toward a flogged-to-death topic of MWI vs the world. Such a discussion has proven to be unproductive time and again in this forum.

Comment author: wedrifid 09 July 2012 09:30:45PM 2 points [-]

I suspect that others downvote private_messaging because of his notoriety. I did downvote his comment because he strayed away from my explicit (estimate the complexity of the Newton's 2nd law) request and toward a flogged-to-death topic of MWI vs the world. Such a discussion has proven to be unproductive time and again in this forum.

Likewise. (With the caveat that I endorse downvoting extreme cases based on notoriety so probably would have downvoted anyway.)

Comment author: shminux 09 July 2012 03:42:26PM *  1 point [-]

We can already do MWI vs Collapse without being clear on F=ma.

At this point I am not interested in human logic, I want a calculation of complexity. I want a string (an algorithm) corresponding to F=ma. Then we can build on that.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 09 July 2012 02:11:28PM -1 points [-]

An interesting point - the algorithm would contain apparent collapses as special instructions even while it did not contain it as general rules.

I think leaving it out as a general rule damages the notion that it's producing the Copenhagen Interpretation, though.