mwengler comments on The Problem Of Apostasy - Less Wrong

10 Post author: Raw_Power 19 July 2012 10:27AM

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Comment author: [deleted] 19 July 2012 11:05:37AM 0 points [-]

My advice in the case of Morocco specifically would be to work towards the instrumental goal of getting those laws changed, rather than the final goal of promoting rationality. Morocco is a semi-democratic country but with extremely low levels of political participation by the citizens. That means one could have a disproportionate effect even by registering to vote (most Moroccans aren't registered), let alone by joining a political party. I'd suggest joining Movement Populaire or Union Constitutionelle, after a few minutes' googling. There's just about enough give in the system that one could make a difference in overall freedom there.

In a country without even that tiny amount of pressure one can put on the levers of power, like an outright theocracy like Iran or hereditary dictatorship, it would depend on whether the budding rationalist considered hir death a reasonable price to pay for increasing overall rationality. If yes, then supporting whatever underground opposition groups exist would make sense. If not, then just doing whatever they could to get somewhere with a saner polity would be the sensible thing to do.

Comment author: Raw_Power 19 July 2012 01:05:13PM *  9 points [-]

Oh. So it does work, the propaganda.. Morocco is only a consitutional monarchy on paper. The power resides in the Palace, and it is absolute. Parties have been proven, time and again, to be utterly impotent before the King. That is why people don't even bother to vote. That is why you will often spot people sleeping during parliament sessions: those simply don't matter.

People have picked up on this. Now, when they make protests, they address the King directly, ignoring the Ministers. Their tone is very deferential, but that's one fuse that's burned out.

And the most popular contenders, were the regime to change, are the Islamists...

Comment author: mwengler 19 July 2012 03:53:33PM 1 point [-]

And the most popular contenders, were the regime to change, are the Islamists...

Wow. Even more reason to want to get out now and enjoy your life among people who think in a way you consider valuable.

Consider it from the democratic point of view. Morocco DOESN'T WANT to be what you want to live in. It is not because of the evil king, it is not because of the evil Islamists. (Well at least not entirely). The people are not looking for the kind of rationality you are looking for.

It might be a nice democratic move to "live and let live." To let Moroccans (or at least the bulk of them) do what they want to do and to go someplace where people do what you want to do.

To me "live and let live" may be a statement of the most basic rational precept ever. It lets you win and it lets them win.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 19 July 2012 04:29:24PM 3 points [-]

To me "live and let live" may be a statement of the most basic rational precept ever. It lets you win and it lets them win.

Sure. The trick is not to confuse it with "live and let suffer and die."

Comment author: Raw_Power 19 July 2012 05:43:21PM 1 point [-]

That is, indeed, the bit that I am worried about.