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Z_M_Davis comments on Generalizing From One Example - Less Wrong
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Corollary: many of the men who self-righteously complain that women only like jerks, may in fact be jerks themselves. (This is a cached thought in the feminist blogosphere, but see also the xkcd version.)
This is indeed a cached thought, but it's mostly wrong.
Men who are introverted, sensitive, and Agreeable often make this complaint, yet they tend to perceive men without those qualities as "jerks." So, "women only like jerks" really means something like "women like men with personalities different from mine."
The observation that "women only like jerks," while untrue, is unsurprising given a well documented female preference for masculine traits in the psychological literature (cites upon request). Feminists may find this notion politically difficult, and feminists themselves might atypically dislike masculine traits in men and project their preferences onto other women via the Typical Psyche Fallacy.
The PUA community also notes that many of the men who make this complaint are in fact passive-aggressively misogynistic and/or fearful of women, and that they need to get over it.
That is, some men who have "nice" behaviors towards women do so because they are enacting a one-sided bargain, expecting to trade these behaviors in exchange for being accepted and not rejected, then become angry when the "bargain" isn't kept.
IOW, being "nice" can be just as manipulative for the typical AFC, as anything the PUAs are going to teach him. And many of the things they'll teach him will be far less manipulative and deceitful than what he was already doing, despite being less socially acceptable than being "nice".
All excellent points. You've probably read the Nice Guy Syndrome by Robert Glover.
My impression is that the pool of men who complain that "women go for jerks" is large, and certainly contains the tendencies you mention. I do think that most of these guys are misguided, and many are bitter, but I don't see evidence that the majority of them are "jerks."
What I object to is labeling guys jerks solely on the basis that they complain that women like jerks.
Nope, just pickup stuff, as noted in the comment above.
See the comment you are responding to (which, btw, does not even contain the word "jerks", except in the part where it was quoting you):
pjeby said:
Well, I would recommend that book because it might be useful for some of your clients, without having to open up the can of worms of the community.
I wasn't attributing the "jerks" judgment to you. I just wanted to make it clear why, even while agreeing with the points in your post (e.g. "many of the men who make this complaint are in fact passive-aggressively misogynistic and/or fearful of women"), I still disagree with the perspective that Z.M. Davis' mentions, which reflexively ascribes jerkitude to those men (see the comments of the post ZM linked to, for example).
I know that PUA is "pickup artist" but what is AFC?
'Average Frustrated Chump' - your typical guy who's not a natural and hasn't got any game.
I don't need a cite, but what are "masculine traits"? Grunting?
That's a pretty good list.
I reviewed some of the evidence of female attraction to masculine traits in men here, and in this series.