gwern comments on Rationality Quotes August 2012 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Alejandro1 03 August 2012 03:33PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Article Navigation

Comments (426)
Tags: quotes

Comments (426)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Eneasz 20 August 2012 06:56:35PM 11 points [-]

An excerpt from Wise Man's Fear, by Patrick Rothfuss. Boxing is not safe.

The innkeeper looked up. "I have to admit I don't see the trouble," he said apologetically. "I've seen monsters, Bast. The Cthaeh falls short of that."

"That was the wrong word for me to use, Reshi," Bast admitted. "But I can't think of a better one. If there was a word that meant poisonous and hateful and contagious, I'd use that."

Bast drew a deep breath and leaned forward in his chair. "Reshi, the Cthaeh can see the future. Not in some vague, oracular way. It sees all the future. Clearly. Perfectly. Everything that can possibly come to pass, branching out endlessly from the current moment."

Kvothe raised an eyebrow. "It can, can it?"

"It can," Bast said gravely. "And it is purely, perfectly malicious. This isn't a problem for the most part, as it can't leave the tree. But when someone comes to visit..."

Kvothe's eyes went distant as he nodded to himself. "If it knows the future perfectly," he said slowly, "then it must know exactly how a person will react to anything it says."

Bast nodded. "And it is vicious, Reshi."

Kvothe continued in a musing tone. "That means anyone influenced by the Cthaeh would be like an arrow shot into the future."

"An arrow only hits on person, Reshi." Bast's dark eyes were hollow and hopeless. "Anyone influenced by the Cthaeh is like a plague ship sailing for a harbor." Bast pointed at the half-filled sheet Chronicler held in his lap. "If the Sithe knew that existed, they would spare no effort to destroy it. They would kill us for having heard what the Cthaeh said."

"Because anything carrying the Cthaeh's influence away from the tree..." Kvothe said, looking down at his hands. He sat silently for a long moment, nodding thoughtfully. "So a young man seeking his fortune goes to the Cthaeh and takes away a flower. The daughter of the king is deathly ill, and he takes the flower to heal her. They fall in love despite the fact that she's betrothed to the neighboring prince..."

Bast stared at Kvothe, watching blankly as he spoke.

"They attempt a daring moonlight escape," Kvothe continued. "But he falls from the rooftops and they're caught. The princess is married against her will and stabs the neighboring prince on their wedding night. The prince dies. Civil war. Fields burned and salted. Famine. Plague..."

"That's the story of the Fastingsway War," Bast said faintly.

Comment author: gwern 20 August 2012 08:14:29PM 3 points [-]

Hah, I actually quoted much of that same passage on IRC in the same boxing vein! Although as presented the scenario does have some problems:

00:23 < Ralith> that was depressing as fuck
00:24 <@gwern> kind of a magical UFAI, although a LWer would naturally ask why it hasn't managed to free itself
00:24 < Ralith> gwern: gods, probably
00:24 <@gwern> Ralith: well, in this universe, gods seem killable
00:24 <@gwern> Ralith: so it doesn't actually resolve the question of how it remains boxed
00:24 < Ralith> gwern: sure, but they're probably more powerful
00:25 < Ralith> the real question is why isn't whatever entity is powerful enough to keep it in place also keeping people away from it
00:25 <@gwern> Ralith: well, the only guards listed are faeries, and among the feats attributed to it is starting a war between the mortal and faerie folk, so...
00:26 < Ralith> a faerie is the one who that info came from, yes?
00:26 < Ralith> hardly an objective source
00:26 <@gwern> Ralith: and I would think a faerie reporting that faerie guard it increases credence
00:27 < Ralith> that only faerie guard it?
00:27 <@gwern> Ralith: well, Bast mentions no other guards
00:27 < Ralith> :P
00:28 < Ralith> anything capable of keeping it in that tree should be capable of keeping people away from it
00:28 < Ralith> since the faeries are presumably trying to do both, they can't be the responsible party.
00:29 <@gwern> who said anything was keeping it in the tree?
00:29 < Ralith> gwern: I did

Comment author: shminux 20 August 2012 09:14:38PM 0 points [-]

who said anything was keeping it in the tree?

It is conceivable that there is no (near enough) future where Cthaeh is freed, thus it is powerless to affect its own fate, or is waiting for the right circumstances.

Comment author: gwern 20 August 2012 09:24:23PM 2 points [-]

That seemed a little unlikely to me, though. As presented in the book, a minimum of many millennia have passed since the Cthaeh has begun operating, and possibly millions of years (in some frames of reference). It's had enough power to set planes of existence at war with each other and apparently cause the death of gods. I can't help but feel that it's implausible that in all that time, not one forking path led to its freedom. Much more plausible that it's somehow inherently trapped in or bound to the tree so there's no meaningful way in which it could escape (which breaks the analogy to an UFAI).

Comment author: shminux 20 August 2012 09:34:01PM 1 point [-]

somehow inherently trapped in or bound to the tree

Isn't it what I said?

Comment author: gwern 20 August 2012 09:36:59PM 0 points [-]

Not by my reading. In your comment, you gave 3 possible explanations, 2 of which are the same (it gets freed, but a long time from 'now') and the third a restriction on its foresight which is otherwise arbitrary ('powerless to affect its own fate'). Neither of these translate to 'there is no such thing as freedom for it to obtain'.

Comment author: Strange7 04 September 2012 07:50:51AM 0 points [-]

Alternatively, perhaps the Cthaeh's ability to see the future is limited to those possible futures in which it remains in the tree.

Comment author: gwern 04 September 2012 02:33:10PM 0 points [-]

Leading to a seriously dystopian variant on Tenchi Muyo!...

Powered by Reddit Powered by Reddit