MichaelVassar comments on "Epiphany addiction" - Less Wrong

52 Post author: cousin_it 03 August 2012 05:52PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (92)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: CarlShulman 03 August 2012 10:16:24PM *  31 points [-]

could all the LW/CFAR-favoured model of epistemic rationality be ineffective, even though it sounds really good and make sense?

Effective at what? I agree with Yvain that:

I think it may help me succeed in life a little, but I think the correlation between x-rationality and success is probably closer to 0.1 than to 1. Maybe [higher] in some businesses like finance, but people in finance tend to know this and use specially developed x-rationalist techniques on the job already without making it a lifestyle commitment.

Hard work, intelligence, social skill, attractiveness, risk-taking, need for sleep, height, and enormous amounts of noise go into life success as measured by something like income or occupational status. So unless there were a ludicrously large effect size of hanging around Less Wrong, differences in life success between readers and nonreaders would be overwhelmingly driven by selection effects. Now, in fact those selection effects put the LW population well above average (lots of college students, academics, software engineers, etc) but don't speak much to positive effects of their reading habits.

To get a good picture of that you would need a randomized experiment, or at least a 'natural experiment.' CFAR is going to tack some outcomes on the attendees of its minicamps, after using randomized admission among applicants above a certain cutoff. Due to the limited sample size, I think this only has enough power to detect insanely massive intervention effects, i.e. a boost of a large fraction of a standard deviation from a few days at a workshop. So I think it won't show positive effects there. It does seem plausible to me, however, that there will be positive effects on narrow measures closer to the intervention, e.g. performance on some measures of cognitive bias from the psychology literature.

In the same way, a scheduling system like Getting Things Done will probably not have visibly significant effects on career outcomes within a year on a small sample size, but would be more likely to do so on a measure like "projects delivered on time" or "average time-to-response for emails."

For someone interested in personal success, a more relevant standard would be whether n hours spent studying or practicing 'rationality exercises' would increase income or other success measures more than taking an extra programming class at Udacity, or working out at the gym, or reading up about financial planning and investment. Here, I'm less certain about the outcome, although my intuition is that rationality exercises would come out behind. The educational literature shows that transfer learning is generally poor, so better to do focused work on the areas of interest, which may include domain-specific heuristics of rational behavior.

And that is for exercises selected to be relatively useful in everyday life. Looking at Eliezer Yudkowsky's sequences much of the content is very far from that: meta-ethics, philosophy of mind, avoiding verbal disputes, an account of welfare for future utopias or dystopias, quantum mechanics (the connection to cryonics at the end is dubious, and a small expected benefit that can't be pinned down today), determinism, much of the sequence on avoiding merely verbal disputes, and so forth. I wouldn't expect big improvements in everyday life from those any more than I would from reading pop-science articles or philosophy textbooks.

If there are big effects from exercises on epistemic rationality, I would expect to see them in areas that normally aren't the subject of much effort, or are the subject of active self-deception, like self-assessments of driving skill, or avoiding asymmetric ("myside") judgments of media bias, or noticing flaws in one's theology. That may help improve aggregate outcomes in areas like politics or charity where people more often indulge in epistemic irrationality for pleasure, laziness, or signalling, but won't be earthshaking on an individual level. But even here, most new lesson plans don't work well, students don't retain that much, and the interventions in the academic literature show mostly modest effect sizes. So I would expect these gains to be small-to-moderate.

Comment author: MichaelVassar 04 August 2012 02:26:53PM 4 points [-]

Carl, you name a lot of factors as going into income and occupational status. What are your estimates for their respective effect sizes and correlations? I'm skeptical of the 'enormous amounts of noise' claim remaining the case after your list plus initial socio-economic endowment, health, specific skills and possibly a few other factors are accounted for. In fact, I'd expect the uncertainty due noise to be far less than the uncertainty in between person estimates of occupational status, a variable which different groups would measure quite differently from one-another.

Also, estimates of the causal relationships between the factors in success would be nice.

Comment author: CarlShulman 04 August 2012 06:41:38PM 13 points [-]

I'm skeptical of the 'enormous amounts of noise' claim

Trivially, look at the wealth of Bill Gates vs Steve Jobs. Most of Peter Thiel's wealth relative to other past tech CEOs comes from one great hit at Facebook. Even entrepreneurs who have succeeded at past VC-backed startups are only moderately more likely to succeed (acquisition, IPO, large size) than new ones. Financiers vary hugely in lifetime career success based on market conditions on Wall Street when they finished school, on which product groups have ups and downs when, and which risky bets happen to blow up before or after they move on.

Within a given size of social circle and selective filter, happening to have the right friends with the right contacts (Jobs and Wozniak) at the right time is critical. Who else produces a similar startup at the same time and how good are they? Do key patents and lawsuits get decided in one's favor? What new scientific and technological innovations enhance or destroy the position of one's company?

At a smaller scale: when do you fall in love and get married? What geographical constraints does that place on you? Do you get hit by a car or infectious disease or cancer, and when? Do you get through noisy hiring processes in tight labor markets, e.g. tenure in academia, getting a first job on Wall Street? Do you click with the person deciding on your medical residency of choice?

We could quibble, but I'd leave it at that.

Comment author: MichaelVassar 04 August 2012 10:15:19PM 5 points [-]

So Jobs ended up with what, $6.7 Billion, http://www.forbes.com/profile/steve-jobs/ making him the 99.99999th percentile among Americans, after not bothering to become the 99.999995th percentile by cashing some options. Meanwhile, Gates started at the 98th or 99th percentile instead of the 60th or 80th percentile and, with a much higher IQ and much greater strategic ability but somewhat lesser over-all talent, rose by the same factor. The idea that Jobs had unusual luck by having one highly technically skilled friend (given Jobs' social skills no less), and by only having to compete head to head with Microsoft, is also faintly amusing. Point mine, I think. Regarding Gates, yes, it's true that a key lawsuit hurt his net worth, but not his wealth rank-order.

Thiel likewise would only have a billion or two instead of three or four (depending on estimates of his non-public holdings like Palantir) without Facebook, lowering his average annual investment returns during the last decade, from about 50% (vs. nothing for the market) to about 40%. This fits with my general impression, and that of the world, that there's a significant absolute amount of luck in investment returns, enough to impact expected outcomes by a factor of 2 or so over a decade and thus a factor of 4 over a career. That makes a big impact in a retirement plan, but not in a business career.

While we're on VC returns, if I'm not mistaken, the best VC firms often have >50% hit rates, and there aren't all that many VC firms.

On a smaller scale, luck determines a very large part of life outcomes, but simply put, that's because most people do nothing with their lives, they simply drift on the wind and let social forces blow them around. If you control for the impact of one's effort applied to decisions, by not trying to make decisions in any deliberate manner but simply going with social pressure, you unsurprisingly find that random factors and not effortful decisions are the major driver of life outcomes.