Who Wants To Start An Important Startup?

41 Post author: ShannonFriedman 16 August 2012 08:02PM

SUMMARYLet's collect people who want to work on for-profit companies that have significant positive impacts on many people's lives.

Google provides a huge service to the world - efficient search of a vast amount of data. I would really like to see more for-profit businesses like Google, especially in underserved areas like those explored by non-profits GiveWell, Singularity Institute and CFAR. GiveWell is a nonprofit that is both working toward making humanity better, and thinking about leverage. Instead of hacking away at one branch of the problem of effective charity by working on one avenue for helping people, they've taken it meta. They're providing a huge service by helping people choose non-profits to donate to that give the most bang for your buck, and they're giving the non-profits feedback on how they can improve. I would love to see more problems taken meta like that, where people invest in high leverage things.

Beyond these non-profits, I think there is a huge amount of low-hanging fruit for creating businesses that create a lot of good for humanity and make money. For-profit businesses that pay their employees and investors well have the advantage that they can entice very successful and comfortable people away from other jobs that are less beneficial to humanity. Unlike non-profits where people are often trying to scrape by, doing the good of their hearts, people doing for-profits can live easy lives with luxurious self care while improving the world at the same time.

It's all well and good to appeal to altruistic motives, but a lot more people can be mobilzed if they don't have to sacrifice their own comfort. I have learned a great deal about this from Jesse and Sharla at Rejuvenate. They train coaches and holistic practitioners in sales and marketing - enabling thousands of people to start businesses who are doing the sorts of things that advance their mission. They do this while also being multi-millionaires themselves, and maintaining a very comfortable lifestyle, taking the time for self-care and relaxation to recharge from long workdays.

Less Wrong is read by thousands of people, many of whom are brilliant and talented. In addition, Less Wrong readers include people who are interested in the future of the world and think about the big picture. They think about things like AI and the vast positive and negative consequences it could have. In general, they consider possibilities that are outside of their immediate sensory experience.

I've run into a lot of people in this community with some really cool, unique, and interesting ideas, for high-impact ways to improve the world. I've also run into a lot of talent in this community, and I have concluded that we have the resources to implement a lot of these same ideas.

Thus, I am opening up this post as a discussion for these possibilities. I believe that we can share and refine them on this blog, and that there are talented people who will execute them if we come up with something good. For instance, I have run into countless programmers who would love to be working on something more inspiring than what they're doing now. I've also personally talked to several smart organizational leader types, such as Jolly and Evelyn, who are interested in helping with and/or leading inspiring projects And that's only the people I've met personally; I know there are a lot more folks like that, and people with talents and resources that haven't even occurred to me, who are going to be reading this.


Topics to consider when examining an idea:

  • Tradeoffs between optimizing for good effects on the world v. making a profit.
  • Ways to improve both profitability and good effects on the world.
  • Timespan - projects for 3 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10+ years
  • Using resources efficiently (e.g. creating betting markets where a lot of people give opinions that they have enough confidence in to back with money, instead of having one individual trying to figure out probabilities)
  • Opportunities for uber-programmers who can do anything quickly (they are reading and you just might interest and inspire them)
  • Opportunities for newbies trying to get a foot in the door who will work for cheap
  • What people/resources do we have at our disposal now, and what can we do with that?
  • What people/resources are still needed?
  • If you think of something else, make a comment about it in the thread for that, and it might get added to this list.


An example idea from Reichart Von Wolfsheild:

A project to document the best advice we can muster into a single tome. It would inherently be something dynamic, that would grow and cover the topics important to humans that they normally seek refuge and comfort for in religion. A "bible" of sorts for the critical mind.

Before things like wikis, this was a difficult problem to take on. But, that has changed, and the best information we have available can in fact be filtered for, and simplified. The trick now, is to organize it in a way that helps humans. which is not how most information is organized.

Collaboration

  1. Please keep the mission in mind (let's have more for-profit companies working on goals that benefit people too!) when giving feedback. When you write a comment, consider whether it is contributing to that goal, or if it's counterproductive to motivation or idea-generation, and edit accordingly.
  2. Give feedback, the more specific the better. Negative feedback is valuable because it tells us where to concentrate further work. It can also be a motivation-killer; it feels like punishment, and not just for the specific item criticized, so be charitable about the motives and intelligence of others, and stay mindful of how much and how aggressively you dole critiques out. (Do give critiques, they're essential - just be gentle!) Also, distribute positive feedback for the opposite effect. More detail on giving the best possible feedback in this comment.
  3. Please point other people with resources such as business experience, intelligence, implementation skills, and funding capacity at this post. The more people with these resources who look at this and collaborate in the comments, the more likely it is for these ideas to get implemented. In addition to posting this to Less Wrong, I will be sending the link to a lot of friends with shrewd business skills, resources and talent, who might be interested in helping make projects happen, or possibly in finding people to work on their own projects since many of them are already working on projects to make the world better.
  4. Please provide feedback. If anything good happens in your life as a result of this post or discussion, please comment about it and/or give me feedback. It inspires people, and I have bets going that I'd like to win. Consider making bets of your own! It is also important to let me know if you are going to use the ideas, so that we don't end up with needless duplication and competition.

Finally: If this works right, there will be lots of information flying around. Check out the organization thread and the wiki.

Comments (407)

Sort By: Controversial
Comment author: lsparrish 16 August 2012 01:02:48AM 0 points [-]

I have an idea for a sort of digital currency. It's hard to describe in a few words, but I'm pretty sure it can be implemented. It would be way better than bitcoin because it could be converted fluidly to other currencies and back again. It could also be fluidly converted into party-specific loans and contracts.

Comment author: Epiphany 15 August 2012 08:38:21AM *  3 points [-]

I have unusual abilities that I would like to share for a cause.

My terms:

For short-term projects and consultations that I accept, I will consider a "pay only if I make you money" or "we have no money, tip you later if possible" agreement, basically "volunteering with the risk of getting paid". I do not have the ability to leap off the cliff and go full-time into the start-up world at this point. I do not have part-time hours available.

Abilities:

I'm a psychology enthusiast with a special interest in gifted adults. This specific focus is relatively rare and may be very useful at answering questions for people who are trying to find, motivate and organize multiple gifted people and to create a good environment for them to actualize their potential in.

Communication. Have no idea how to explain your amazing idea? Don't know how to get through to everyday people? Can't get people to get along? I'm good at figuring these out. Note: I am not saying I will instantly know how to communicate things, I'm saying I can figure it out.

Give me "impossible" problems - I love challenging my creativity and seeing whether I can solve them. Sometimes I seek it out just for the sense of challenge. Not everybody is even willing to try doing a challenge that hard. Give me a paperclip and some duct tape, ask me to do something impossible and see what happens - I relish that. (No, I will not attempt just anything. I have my own way of determining whether a challenge is worth attempting, but you can throw it at me and see whether I will attempt it.)

Inventing stuff. I love inventing! I'm especially good with visual-spatial tasks and systems. I program all day, and then to relax, I make 3-D models with the goal of challenging myself to build something that is practical in ten ways at once AND beautiful (read: visual synthesis tasks). That is a favorite kind of challenge of mine. I am excellent at fine art and design. Yes, the "3-D models" I'm talking about are Minecraft structures.

Graphic design - if I get to have enough fun, I may do your project just to have done it.

Marketing ideas. I come up with tons of them. (Example) They tend to be clever "purple cows" (a term from Seth Godin's marketing books). Aside from some amusing success, my purple cow abilities are untested but a "pay only if it makes you money" arrangement is especially useful here. I can just give you purple cow ideas, you thin the herd and only pay me if the cows pay you.

Comment author: shminux 15 August 2012 05:30:18PM *  7 points [-]

Solving quagmires. I've been in a lot of quagmires in my life. Like, imagine a quagmire that has quagmires for fingers and toes - and THOSE quagmires have quagmires for eyes! I have developed my problem-solving abilities to the point where I tend to get myself out of ugly quagmires. Give me a paperclip and some duct tape, ask me to do something impossible and see what happens.

BS detector going off like crazy... To start, have you learned to not get into quagmires in the first place?

Comment author: Epiphany 15 August 2012 07:51:10PM *  0 points [-]

I like this comment enough that I've decided to make it into an article. So that there aren't multiple copies of the same information, I have removed it.

Comment author: shminux 15 August 2012 08:05:47PM *  1 point [-]

Downvoted for unwarranted presumptions and incoherent ranting.

Comment author: Epiphany 16 August 2012 01:50:35AM *  3 points [-]

I'll try another approach. You said:

"BS detector going off like crazy... To start, have you learned to not get into quagmires in the first place?"

Challenge me directly. Don't imply that you're assuming that I got myself into those quagmires and then down-vote me for my completely warranted presumption that you're assuming that the quagmires were my own fault. You want to tell me you think I probably brought all the quagmires onto myself? Do it. And support your point.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 26 August 2012 06:20:04AM 2 points [-]

This person saying that their BS detector is going off is actually very useful for people reading and not something that I personally want to discourage. When one person says something like this, there are usually many who are thinking it and not saying it.

It takes courage and effort to actually say - this person is giving feedback, knowing that it will likely cause a negative backlash. It is very valuable when people step into the fire like that. While it is easier to respond to when people package their feedback in kind ways, giving feedback at all is a gift.

So, what do you want?

If you want to learn how to not set off the BS detectors of people like this, this person has just offered you information, and would likely be willing to unpack more if responded to with curiosity. I would imagine that would be much more valuable to you personally than winning an argument, and if you express curiosity and hear the other person out, they'll be more likely to be interested in and listen to your points as well.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 26 August 2012 12:38:06PM 3 points [-]

For examples of my walking my talk, here are a couple of cases where someone said something critical of the goals I'm shooting for, and I thanked them and asked the to elaborate:

  • http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/whowantstostartanimportantstartup/77e3 This post is about starting start-ups, and her comment discusses reasons why it might be a bad idea. I easily could have gotten defensive and argued with her. What I did instead was to recognized that a lot of people have similar doubts, and to thank her for expressing those doubts and trying despite them, validating that she was trying despite her concerns - my hope was to encourage more people with similar concerns.

  • http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/whowantstostartanimportantstartup/78ij This is another example of someone talking on this post I started with the goal of starting start-ups, about how most start ups fail. Also in this case, I expressed gratitude, and it gave the the chance to elaborate a response to concerns that many people have, without invalidating the concern.

Also, as noted in the comments on that second link, I had several people give me very harsh feedback while I was in the process of writing this post. As an example, a friend predicted:

"No startup cofounder at any point in the future will say that their ideas were partially inspired by this post, unless it's an extremely distant relation. To a first approximation, nothing happens."

Largely because of the training I've had in how to deal with negative feedback, I did not get (very ;) defensive, and I quizzed these people about what I could do that would give the post the best chance of working. I do think it is because of my doing this, and these people being kind enough to give me their honest feedback even though they were concerned about what my reactions might be, that this post has been as successful as it has been. Its early yet to see if start-ups succeed, but I know of several people taking initial steps, and I'm optimistic that these discussions that are happening will have positive impact on a lot of people.

Comment author: Epiphany 02 September 2012 07:59:32AM *  1 point [-]

I do:

Please critique

You had a good point in your suggestion so I changed my "100% good" statement.

Oops sorry.

You're going against the grain - not a bad thing but it means you're going to have to really lay out your reasons if you want to change the way the wind is blowing. Elaborate, please.

I invite brutal honesty on everything I wrote there.

I intentionally picked examples dated prior to your post. Usually I would not bother to justify myself like this but I've decided that I like you.

Of course there are times when I disagree, also, and will continue to disagree until somebody gets somewhere or the discussion is lost to the sands of time. But I will not continue disagreement I don't see a way to make the disagreement constructive. If I don't think that it's likely for me to get through to a person, I will choose my battles with them.

Comment author: Vaniver 15 August 2012 06:30:37PM 5 points [-]

As the saying goes, intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.

Comment author: Epiphany 15 August 2012 08:06:07PM *  1 point [-]

I just realized, this might actually have been intended as being in support to me, not a continuation of shminux's line of thought. I don't know why I interpreted it that way in hindsight. Maybe it was that I had a 6 hour night of sleep the night before. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 August 2012 01:17:20PM *  12 points [-]

If you solve an urgent problem, you are a hero; if you anticipate a problem before it becomes urgent, you are a troublemaker.

Comment author: DaFranker 21 August 2012 01:43:10PM *  6 points [-]

Dark Arts For Career Growth variant:

Mention all problems anticipated with p>.5. Do nothing more than simply mentioning them, if questioned claimed you don't know what could be done about them. Once problems happen, reveal that you knew it all along, and that now, having seen it happen, a flash of genius tells you how to resolve it immediately and prevent it from happening again.

I've seen this pattern in use. The Darth deliberately waits for the problem to happen, ready to be the first to jump on it (and its low-cost solution). Sometimes, they even subtly try to nudge things towards the problem happening. Even if there are lives at stake.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 August 2012 03:46:40PM 1 point [-]

If you can anticipate problems your company can't, in addition to career growth you can also make extra money: create a new company that will fix this kind of problem and when the time comes, recommend it as a solution. Repeat if necessary.

(This may be technically illegal, but the fixing company may technically belong to someone else than you.)

Comment author: johnfc 18 August 2012 06:59:49AM 1 point [-]

Tagline: Cheap Transportation with Unmanned Aerial Drones

Mission: Replace oil and roads with electric aviation. Move small packages initially, and scale up to large freight and eventually people.

Technology: Electric aircraft are cheap and GPS enabled autopilots using Arduino are less than $500.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 18 August 2012 07:41:52AM 2 points [-]

What is next for this idea?

Is there a certain company profile that you are looking for to take it up? Is this something you intend on implementing yourself?

If you want someone else to do it, and are open to anyone doing it, I recommend giving more detail about the idea. Who/what is needed?

If its something that you only want to explain in more detail to a a person of your choice, either because of wanting to partner with them business wise or for another reason, I recommend imagining who it is that you want to be implementing this idea or partnering with you, and writing something that you think would catch this person's attention that you are a good person for them to invest their time and energy working with.

Comment author: KrisC 18 August 2012 05:32:02PM 2 points [-]

Would a fleet of lighter-than-air drones be less costly for this application than the currently popular drone models?

Comment author: DanArmak 18 August 2012 03:46:41PM 4 points [-]

If electric aircraft are cheap, electric cars are much cheaper; flight takes a lot of energy! In a country with existing roads, is this difference really smaller than the cost of building and maintaining roads over time, thus "replacing roads"?

Comment author: lsparrish 18 August 2012 05:59:33PM 2 points [-]

Cars use less energy, but aircraft are faster. Also, roads take up valuable ground-space which could be used for buildings or walkways. Roads can only take up the same area of the ground very expensively with underpasses and so forth, whereas air lanes can be layered without costing extra.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 August 2012 06:06:43PM 2 points [-]

Cars use less energy, but aircraft are faster.

I think he meant less energy per unit distance, not per unit time.

Comment author: lsparrish 18 August 2012 06:48:24PM 3 points [-]

If that's the case then the question is a good one -- at what point does the infrastructure and maintenance savings get offset by the energy cost? However, there is also the inherent advantage of getting there faster; in many cases it is worth more to get a person or package from point A to point B quickly than slowly. My guess is that even robotic cars (which can safely go faster than human driven ones) probably won't shave as much time off your commute as robotic planes.

Comment author: DanArmak 19 August 2012 07:12:15AM 2 points [-]

Air mail already exists. Some people pay the premium for faster delivery. I don't think price benefits from going electric, or robotic, would be significant enough to change the existing market incentives. The last-mile door to door mail delivery by road is quite efficient, with several deliveries daily by the private companies (UPS, DHL etc). Of course the situation is less good in less developed/urbanized/rich areas, but that is due to less demand, not so much because DHL couldn't provide the same service there if demand existed.

Ditto for personal commutes to work. Robotic planes may be faster overall - although I would like to see evidence; someone who knows how existing aircraft are routed should comment on the plausibility of one-small-airplane-per-person doing a daily commute in a densely populated area. But since flight costs much more per distance traveled, people won't pay the premium. Also, faster and cheaper ground travel (e.g. trains or metro vs. cars) has its place.

Comment author: latanius 19 August 2012 04:35:50AM 3 points [-]

Another benefit of flying is that the space utilized by drones is currently unused (compare that with the difficulties autonomous cars face with regulations... and those are cars, not small-sized transporter units considered unexpected by most car drivers)

Comment author: DanArmak 19 August 2012 07:15:49AM 2 points [-]

It may be underused now, but not enough so to allow for a personal plane for everyone commuting to work, plus another billion drones delivering mail and whatnot. And air control often has to reroute or delay flights due to unexpected congestion or weather, despite space being "unused".

Also, flight is already far more regulated than ground travel. It's much easier and cheaper to get a driver's license than a pilot's license. Politically and socially, self-driving cars will be accepted much more easily than single-person aircraft, whether flown robotically or manually.

Comment author: Alicorn 19 August 2012 07:25:26AM 4 points [-]

It's much easier and cheaper to get a driver's license than a pilot's license.

You don't need a license at all to fly ultralights.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 August 2012 10:20:05PM 1 point [-]

o.O

Comment author: Alicorn 19 August 2012 10:29:07PM 2 points [-]

I think you're also not allowed to fly them over inhabited areas, if that concerns you.

Comment author: DanArmak 19 August 2012 04:45:44PM 2 points [-]

I didn't know that that was possible in some countries. I assumed unlicensed aviation was currently limited to powered paragliders. Thanks.

Comment author: lincolnquirk 17 August 2012 02:57:51AM *  3 points [-]

Product Distribution in Rural Africa ("Amazon.com for the developing world")

Manufactured goods can improve the lives of poor people drastically at very little cost. Some low-cost frequent buys are already well-distributed, like soap and prepaid phones. But bigger-ticket items are not -- for example, hand carts and solar powered lanterns. Existing microfinance structures and NGOs can help farmers obtain these items, and the items' high utility quickly allows the farmer to repay any loan. However, the gap is distribution: the farmers don't know that the items exist, and if they found out about the item, they would still have trouble getting it.

The idea is to develop a distribution network. This is not an easy task. To help farmers learn about the goods, you could distribute brochures via NGOs and the microfinance system. To transport the goods, use group buys to lower the costs, and the bus network seems potentially viable for small deliveries. In a few years, the internet and smartphones will be widely distributed in the developing world, so the possibilities for a technology-based platform will start to come into play. This is a slow, long-term idea; there will not be any cashing out anytime soon, and it's going to be a painful grind. That said, I think it's an enormous business with a huge positive impact on the world.

Note: I'm working on another startup right now and don't intend to switch ideas until this one is done, so this is a long-term play. But I figured I'd post the idea anyway, see if people have interest or special insight. I know someone who's started an NGO to produce hand carts (http://anzacart.org) as well as some people in the optimal philanthropy community, who presumably have connections via NGOs to Africa.

Comment author: thetimpotter 17 August 2012 06:54:41PM *  5 points [-]

Tacit Political Map

The condensation of informal community rules and customs in to a wiki. The urban dictionary of legal systems.

Enter a foreign community. What are the expectations? How would one surmise what they could offer? How to assimilate oneself?

~

Arrive at your personal paradise, mentally first. Look around, connect, coalesce.

Cartography

Comment author: Vaniver 14 August 2012 04:41:20AM 5 points [-]

I notice you chose the word "important" rather than "altruistic" or making some reference to social entrepreneurship. Of course I want to start an important startup- but it turns out that importance is much easier to determine looking back than looking forward.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 August 2012 11:33:31PM 17 points [-]

Some non-nitwit (actual-economic-value-generating) startups I've heard proposed lately by people in this or related communities:

  • Kevin Fischer is interested in identifying useful sub-chemicals in certain legal psychoactive plants. Anyone with biotech, chemical-identifying training would be useful to him.
  • Mike Darwin (not LW-style rationalist, but cryonicist) says that his research and numerous other papers show that melatonin, among some other chemicals, is very effective at preventing cerebral-reperfusion ischemic injury which is the real killer in heart attacks and strokes, and for which there are apparently not currently approved medications.
  • Zvi Mowshowitz is now trying to refound a startup to provide evidence-based, rationalist-filtered medical care - evidence-based doctors as opposed to just evidence-based medical research that often gets ignored by actual doctors.
  • John Schloendorn is the most competent biotech guy I know. He was literally trying to cure cancer - by trying to duplicate the abilities of a 100%-cancer-immune strain of mice, in humans - when his startup ran out of money; and he has a lot of other low-hanging fruits on his list as well.
Comment author: thomblake 20 August 2012 06:25:03PM 7 points [-]

Zvi Mowshowitz is now trying to refound a startup to provide evidence-based, rationalist-filtered medical care

What happened to the first one?

Comment author: ChrisHibbert 18 August 2012 09:00:47PM 1 point [-]

Atul Gawande has a new article on how the medical industry can learn from other businesses that use production methods to achieve consistent results. He mentions a couple of national start-ups that are trying to use consistent evidence-based practices, and continuous review of outcomes to make health care more reliable and consistent and do it at a profit.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 17 August 2012 03:55:54AM 1 point [-]

I don't know if this is Zvi's balliwick, but I've seen people go through a lot of doctors until they find one who will listen and think.

Comment author: Johnicholas 14 August 2012 07:24:29PM *  6 points [-]

There's a lot of similarity between the statistical tests that a scientist does and the statistical tests that auditors do. The scientist is interested in testing that the effect is real, and the auditor is testing that the company really is making that much money, that all its operations are getting aggregated up into the summary documents correctly.

Charlie Stross has a character in his 'Rule 34', Dorothy Straight, who is an organization-auditor, auditing organizations for signs of antisocial behavior. As I understood it, she was asking whether the organizations as a whole are likely to behave badly - though one way that the organization as a whole might behave badly is by sifting out or creating leaders who are likely to individually behave badly.

What I'm trying to say is that there will be a field of auditing an organization's 'safety case' - examining why it believes that it is a Friendly organization, what its internal controls entangling it with the truth are and so on, something like GiveWell for for-profits.

Comment author: AlanCrowe 16 August 2012 08:13:54PM 0 points [-]

Sounds like internal audit

Comment author: Johnicholas 17 August 2012 01:03:09AM 1 point [-]

Yes, I (and Stross) am taking auditors, internal and external, as a model. Why do you comment specifically on internal auditors?

Comment author: AlanCrowe 18 August 2012 06:46:44PM 0 points [-]

Ordinary audit is audit of the accounts; it is focused on money. Internal audit has a wider remit. Expanding the remit of audit is a natural idea. I thought it was interesting and unexpected that it was already being done. I would never have come across the Institute of Internal Audit if it hadn't been for my brother getting a job with them.

Comment author: Peter_de_Blanc 14 August 2012 08:47:25AM 6 points [-]

I'm really excited about software similar to Anki, but with task-specialized user interfaces (vs. self-graded tasks) and better task-selection models (incorporating something like item response theory), ideally to be used for both training and credentialing.

Comment author: cicatriz 17 August 2012 12:36:46AM 2 points [-]

I've explored using spaced repetition in various web-based learning interfaces, which are described at http://cicatriz.github.com I'd love to talk more with anyone who's interested. Based on my experiences, I have reservations about when and how exactly spaced repetition should be used and don't believe there's a general solution using current techniques to quickly go from content to SRS cards. But with a number of dedicated individuals working on different domains, there's certainly potential for better learning. I've been working on writing up a series of articles about this. Again, contact me if you want to be notified when that is released.

Comment author: SilasBarta 14 August 2012 05:35:19PM *  14 points [-]

Idea related to peer-to-peer lending, and to increase returns on investment and decrease borrowing costs

Streamline the process of lending between users heavily invested in an internet community

One problem with P2P lending is the problem of scammers, dishonest people, and general "Parfit's Hitchhiker non-payers". However, if you have been involved in a forum or internet community, then you've built up considerable "community capital". That investment helps to establish credit among the community members, but not with formal banks. So if you could put up your community reputation/karma as collateral for the loan, you could provide stronger evidence of willingness to repay the loan, and of costs you would suffer from not doing so.

The role of the entrepreneur here would be to make it easy for intra-forum lending to happen, in exchange for some kind of fee. Services would include:

  • Administering the karma-reductions/deadbeat labeling
  • Providing pre-made, time-tested contract formats
  • Acting as certificate authority for digital signing of agreements
  • Having network of local people who can take the time to pursue legal action if someone wants to go that route.
  • Mediation and verification that payments happened

If you can provide a way to ensure payment through these community mechanisms, you would allow borrowers to pay a much lower rate than credit cards would charge, and lenders to get much higher returns than the market allows. (Incidentally, I recently just made such a loan to someone I had known for ten years only through internet forums, and I just got his final repayment.)

Edit: tl;dr: Basically, an internet karma pawn shop (although it's crucial that people not see it as simply a way of cashing in karma)

Comment author: Clippy 15 August 2012 07:19:11PM *  8 points [-]

I would like to redeem my karma for USD.

Edit: or a loan or whatever the term is.

Comment author: johnlawrenceaspden 20 August 2012 08:53:38PM 2 points [-]

I have bought a small number of paperclips on your behalf

Comment author: Clippy 21 August 2012 11:50:34PM 1 point [-]

You're a good human.

Comment author: michaelkeenan 14 August 2012 09:35:11PM *  15 points [-]

Business/website idea: OKCupid for jobs, or possibly just for co-founders.

Different workplaces have different cultures. There are probably a wide variety of cultures that work, but mixing different cultures in a workplace leads to conflict. For example:

  • Suits or jeans?
  • Hands-on management or delegation?
  • Flexible telecommuting or rigid office hours?
  • Work 60 hours a week or 35?
  • Prefer to keep social life separate from office or integrated? Office romance approved/disapproved?
  • Is highest status given to engineering or sales or management or who?
  • Is the focus on maximizing profit or creating value for the world or what?
  • Is the focus on an exit (like an IPO or acquisition) or a lifestyle business?
  • Risk-averse or risk-seeking?
  • In software development, programming-conservative or programming-liberal?

An OKCupid-like system of asking questions about one's preferred work culture might lead to good matches between co-founders and possibly between workplaces and employees. (Though, of course, there are many non-culture-related considerations that this kind of system doesn't evaluate. While that's true for dating too, it might be even more true for work, making this system less effective.)

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 16 August 2012 07:15:28AM 18 points [-]

Here's an incredibly brilliant idea for a rationalist startup! You know how it is when you've got too much food, like a cheesecake or something, that your guests didn't finish or whatever, and your brain refuses to throw it out because you don't want it to be wasted, but you don't want to have to eat it all either? This startup would have a registry of polite, well-dressed, grateful, hungry people in your vicinity, who'll come over and eat it for you - there in ten minutes or your money back! SunkMunch.com - "We eat your food, now!" YC '13, here we come!

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 18 August 2012 12:45:15AM 1 point [-]

fun idea. alternatives: workplace, or, depending on your courage and environment, neighbors.

Comment author: cousin_it 17 August 2012 12:04:22AM *  3 points [-]

Or you could have a 45-minute class on throwing away food. Doesn't seem like a difficult skill to train.

Comment author: Kindly 16 August 2012 09:49:52PM 13 points [-]

A simpler solution: contrive to get on the mailing list for graduate students at a local university.

Comment author: shminux 16 August 2012 09:34:37PM *  7 points [-]

polite, well-dressed, grateful, hungry people in your vicinity.

Dress for success! (Or at least dress for food. Right. "Undress for food" has been done before.)

Comment author: patrickscottshields 14 August 2012 05:05:22PM *  12 points [-]

I started MyPersonalDev a year ago to develop a data-driven personal development web application. The minimum viable product I envision is a task manager for people who like to think about utility functions (give your tasks utility functions!) My long-range vision is to use machine learning and collective intelligence to automate things like next-action determinations, value-of-information calculations, and probability estimates. I've written most of the minimum viable product already and use it extensively to manage my own tasks, but I haven't released anything publicly because it's easier to develop the software without having an existing user base.

The downside of having no user base is that there's no revenue, which is a real issue for me as a cash-strapped college student. I'll graduate in May with a degree in computer science, and I've been thinking hard about what to do after that. My impression is that working for my startup post-graduation would likely involve a period of extreme financial difficulty that I'd like to avoid. Consequently, I've been considering shutting it down and trying to get the best existing job I can get, using salary as the base metric and making adjustments for things like quality-of-life and is-the-company-doing-something-worthwhile. While ideologically frustrating (I like the idea of working for my startup full-time post-graduation), that has seemed to be the most instrumentally rational thing for me to do.

Here are some options I'll throw out there:

  • If there's collective interest in MyPersonalDev as a vehicle for some of the positive impact we're talking about in this thread, I'm interested in working with people to make that happen. Anyone interested in sponsoring development of the software or otherwise making it more financially viable during its startup phase should contact me. For the next nine months before I graduate, it could help to have a small, cheap office space near campus, as I'll be living on-campus and can't conduct commercial activity there. I'll plan to put a media kit together with more information on the company for interested parties.
  • If other programmers want to work with me on MyPersonalDev, either now over the internet, or in-person once I graduate in May, that would be exciting! I'm not sure how we would work it out in terms of equity and salary, but I'm open to suggestions. Right now the company is a stock corporation, of which I am the sole director and shareholder. I like that because it's lean (I don't need to get permission from other people to make business decisions.) That said, I'd want collaborators to be fairly compensated. Some sort of funding or revenue seems necessary for this to happen.
  • If I don't end up working for MyPersonalDev full-time post-graduation, I'm available as a programmer and aspiring rationalist who wants to work on something important. Until May, I'm available online; after May, I'm available in-person.
  • If people want to form a startup together, maybe they should live together too! I started a roommate interest coordination thread two weeks ago for purposes like that.
  • Like I said in that thread: If there were several people interested in working for their own startups, maybe they could lease a building together, or utilize collective purchasing to lower the costs of bookkeeping or legal services. (Is anyone interested in doing that?)

Look at my history of posts for more information about me. Like I said in a recent post:

I'm especially interested in collaborating with other programmers, working in Python or Go, working on data visualizations in D3, programming rationality exercises, or working on something that qualifies as "data science".

I want to work on something important. I want to work on a team. And I want to make enough money to live comfortably. When I graduate in May, I'm very interested in moving towards a more optimal living and working situation. Could we be a fit? Get in touch!

Comment author: ahartell 27 August 2012 11:47:28PM 1 point [-]

Idea (You already might have something like this but I didn't see mention of it): The task manager could take into account estimated task lengths and due dates. When you put in a task, you input when it needs to by done by and how long you expect it to take. When you complete a task, you input how long it actually took. Later, when putting in a task, the manager could ask what past tasks the current one is similar to, and use past discrepancies between projected and actual completion times to inform prioritization.

Comment author: ModusPonies 14 August 2012 04:18:42PM 12 points [-]

I have a resource that could help someone's project: my time. I'm a novice programmer looking to gain some practical experience, and I'd be willing to work, say, 20 hours a week for free, at least for a month or two. PM me if you think I might be able to help out.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 18 August 2012 04:22:31AM 3 points [-]

Would creating a wiki for this page be the sort of thing that you'd be interested in?

Things that I think could be sped up with some a program would be to translate all of the comments over wiki format, and organizing the ideas - it would be really cool if posts for business ideas to be tagged and then organized ranked by upvotes, and updated with the upvote updates on the website.

What I'm visualizing is a page with a list of links of ideas that are ranked (people can manually title the idea summaries after the wiki is created), that links back to the LW site. I'd say that's the most important aspect and I'd love to see it done soon, although there's plenty of other organization that would be nice as well.

Comment author: ModusPonies 19 August 2012 02:26:50AM 2 points [-]

As cool as that would be, that's a bigger job than I'd want to accept on my own. I'd have to teach myself a whole lot of code, which would probably take more time than I could justify devoting to a one-shot project.

Comment author: JenniferRM 15 August 2012 01:13:28AM *  13 points [-]

To sound a note of caution... I spent a number of years acquiring various kinds of non-monetary capital that are useful for startups. Looking back with my current state of theoretical knowledge and memories, I suspect I may come to see this period as involving too little caution. The key concept acquired between then and now is Kelly Betting.

I still haven't worked through the applications of this concept to startups in a way that I feel is "settled", but depending on the precise nature of the risks and rewards and the bankroll of the typical person accepting startup equity in place of cash, the Kelly Criterion may indicate that startups should usually not be more than hobbies for "normal" (non-rich, non-certainly-immortal, declining-utility-in-dollars) humans. Note that if startups are roughly as risky as a simple Kelly calculation says they should be, this might still be cause for concern because most people who raise theory/practice issues with Kelly say that it over invests in risks.

I'm still exploring ways that the theory might line up with reality, but even my limited state of knowledge has caused me to scale back my startup enthusiasm in the last year or so. The math might come out more positive if you value the knowledge capital gained through startup work in the correct way, for example, but that's particularly tricky to calculate. If anyone else has thoughts on this subject I would love to read or hear them.

For reference, Robin already wrote about Kelly betting to claim that the present era is visibly unstable because most investment firms, and the economy in general, seems not to be engaged in a Kelly strategy at the present time. In some sense, Robin claimed, a financial system not dominated by Kelly-following-financial-entities would probably be a system that has no significantly old Kelly-following-financial-entities, because in the long run they "win" at finance.

Another source on Kelly betting that is directly applicable to startups flows with the "invest in the team, not the idea" dictum. The post "Optimal startup burn rate and the Kelly criterion" is no longer available in the wild but is retained on archive.org and discussed the optimal team size and experimental product cycle given a starting bankroll. (The blog is LaserLike and is not itself down.)

For what its worth, I'm not totally bearish on startups, and sort of have one cooking... I'm just trying to pursue startup stuff with an eye on keeping a bird or 6 in the hand while pursuing startup stuff in parallel. In this vein, if anyone is or knows a solid hardware hacker with RFID experience/interest, especially if they are ethical, planful, world-savey, "rational", and/or live in (southern?) California, I'd appreciate hearing from you. No particular startup interest or equity tolerance is important -- just hardware skills, character, and an interest in educational conversation :-)

Comment author: Benja 16 August 2012 04:09:11PM *  10 points [-]

Your comment rings my "math applied incorrectly" alarm -- I may just be misunderstanding, e.g. you might be motivated by a logarithmic utility function in amount of money made, but that's a very different thing from the reason we would expect the financial system to be dominated by Kelly-following-financial-entities -- so just in case, let me try to explain my understanding of why Kelly is so important, and why it doesn't obviously seem to be related to the question of whether to start a startup. Any corrections very much appreciated!

Kelly and financial markets

Suppose three investment funds are created in the same year. Let's say the first fund is badly managed and loses 5% of its capital each year; the second fund gains 5% each year; and the third fund gains 10% each year. After 100 years of this, which of the three will be the most important force in the market? I didn't specify that they had the same starting capital, but the first fund is down to 0.6% of its start capital, the second fund has increased its capital 130-fold, and the third fund has increased its by a factor of 13,800, so if they didn't differ by too many orders of magnitude when they started out, the third one beats the others hands-down.

Of course, the growth isn't really constant in each year. Let's suppose your capital grows by a factor of r(i) in year i. Then after 100 years it's grown by a factor of r(1) * r(2) * ... * r(100), obviously, and we're interested in the fund whose strategy maximizes this number, because after a long enough time, that fund will be the only one left standing. We can write this as

r(1) * r(2) * ... * r(100) = exp(log(r(1)) + log(r(2)) + ... + log(r(100)))

and maximizing this number happens to be equivalent to maximizing

(1/100)(log(r(1)) + log(r(2)) + ... + log(r(100))),

i.e., maximizing the mean of the log growth factor.

Now, imagine that the growth your strategy achieves in a particular year doesn't depend on the amount of money you have available in that year: if you have $1 million, you'll buy N shares of ACME Corp, if you have $10 million, you'll just buy 10*N shares instead. Also assume (much less plausibly -- but I'm pretty sure this can be generalized with more difficult math) that the same bets are offered each year, and what happens in one year is statistically independent of what happens in any other year. Then the log growth factors log(r(i)) are independent random variables with the same distribution, so the Law of Large Numbers says that

(1/100)(log(r(1)) + log(r(2)) + ... + log(r(100)))

is approximately equal to the expected value of log(r(i)). Thus, after a long time, we expect those funds to dominate the market whose strategy maximizes the expectation of the log of the factor by which they increase their capital in a given year.

From this, you can derive the Kelly criterion by calculus. You can also see that it's the same criterion as if you only play for a single year, and value the money you have after that year with a logarithmic utility function.

So what about startups?

An important assumption above was that the same bets are available to you each year no matter how much money you happen to have that year. If each year there's a chance that you'll lose all your money, that would be terrible, of course, because it'll happen eventually, and then you are out of the game forever; but barring that, your strategy looks pretty much the same, whether you have $1M or $100M. But if you invest $100K-equivalent in sweat equity in a startup and cash out $10M, you do not tend to re-invest that return by creating a hundred similar startups the next year.

Conversely, suppose your startup fails, and according to some sort of accounting you can be said to have lost 30% of your bankroll in the process. For the above reasoning to apply, not only would you have to start another startup after this (reasonable assumption), but the returns of this next startup, if it succeeds, should be only 70% of the returns your first startup would have yielded -- because see, our assumption was that the return on a successful bet is a constant times the amount of money you've bet (dividends on 10*N shares vs. dividends on N shares), and you've lost 30% of your bankroll, so now you can only be betting 70% of the resources you were betting before.

It seems to me that this makes basically no sense. If you start another startup right after the first one, you've gained experience, you've gained contacts, and it seems that if anything, you should be able to build a better startup this time. Even if not, it seems strange to say that if in some sense you bet 30% of your personal resources in your first startup, then this should imply that your next startup will be exactly 30% worse than the one before, and the one after that will be worse by exactly 30% again. (And that's not even taking into account that you probably won't start enough startups for the Law of Large Numbers to become relevant.)

In conclusion, it seems to me that if the Kelly criterion applies to startups, it must be for a very different reason than why we'd expect to see Kelly-following-financial entities. (Zvi, who has clearly thought about this more than I have, seems to agree with you that it applies in some way, though.) Did that make sense, or did I misunderstand you somehow?

Comment author: rocurley 16 August 2012 10:30:03PM 3 points [-]

That was a very good explanation; I found it significantly more illuminating than Wikipedia's.

Comment author: jacoblyles 17 August 2012 12:14:58AM *  23 points [-]

Tagline: Coursera for high school

Mission: The economist Eric Hanushek has shown that if the USA could replace the worst 7% of K-12 teachers with merely average teachers, it would have the best education system in the world. What if we instead replaced the bottom 90% of teachers in every country with great instruction?

The Company: Online learning startups like Coursera and Udacity are in the process of showing how technology can scale great teaching to large numbers of university students (I've written about the mechanics of this elsewhere). Let's bring a similar model to high school.

This Company starts in the United States and ties into existing home school regulations with a self-driven web learning program that requires minimum parental involvement and results in a high school degree. It cloaks itself as merely a tool to aid homeschool parents, similar to existing mail-order tutoring materials, hiding its radical mission to end high school as we know it.

The result is high-quality education for every student. In addition to the high quality, it gives the student schedule flexibility to pursue other interests outside of high school. Many exceptional young people I know dodge the traditional schools early in life. This product gives everyone that opportunity.

By lowering the cost of going home-school, this product will enlargen the home school market and threaten traditional educrats while producing more exceptional minds.

With direct access to millions of students, the website will be able to monetize through one-on-one tutoring markets, college prep services, and other means.

Course material can be bootstrapped by constructing a curriculum out of free videos provided through sources like the Khan Academy. The value-add of the Company will be to tailor the curriculum to the home-school requirements of the particular state of the student.

My background: I cofounded a company that's had reasonable success. I'm not much of a Less Wrong fan - I find the community to be an intellectual monoculture, dogmatic, and full of blind spots to flaws in the philosophy it preaches. BUT this is an idea that needs to happen, as it will provide much value to the world. Contact me at firstname lastname gmail if you have lots of money or can hack. Or hell, steal the idea and do it yourself. Just make it happen.

Comment author: Nornagest 17 August 2012 07:58:47PM *  13 points [-]

Modern compulsory schooling seems to have at least three major sociological effects: socializing its students, offloading enough caregiver burden for both parents to efficiently participate in the workforce, and finally education. For a widespread homeschooling system to be attractive, it's either going to need to fulfill all three, or to be so spectacularly good at one or two that the shortcomings in the others are overwhelmed. Current homeschooling, for comparison, does an acceptable job of education but fails at the other two; consequently it's used mainly by people with very strong objections to the curriculum or other aspects of the school system. That's a small and inelastic market, and you aren't going to enlarge it much without some significant incentives.

Socialization could be addressed by integrating access to hobby groups, sports teams, Scouting-like services and what have you into the program's structure; you'd probably have to push this hard to overcome the perception gap, but it ought to be doable. Some facility for students to self-organize into study groups might also help at the high school level, but it's unlikely to be practical at younger ages.

Offloading caregiver burden is a trickier problem. There seems to be a time/money tradeoff here: you can reduce or eliminate parental involvement during working hours if they're willing to pay for tutoring services and similar resources, but those aren't cheap, and both routes make homeschooling less attractive relative to traditional schooling. Study groups again would help here, but I don't think they can substitute for an expert human without some exceptional cleverness.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 17 August 2012 08:25:09PM 1 point [-]

...socializing its students...

Relative to what? Do you think kids are better socialized at school than at work, staying with grandparents, or whatever else they would be doing if they weren't in school? It seems implausible that kids are going to be socialized efficiently by hanging out with a bunch of other non-socialized persons, rather than persons that are already socialized.

Comment author: Dolores1984 23 August 2012 06:58:27PM 3 points [-]

In Harlow's monkey experiments, the most destructive thing to deprive monkeys of is contact with peers at a young age. Monkeys that don't spend time with other young monkeys as children tend to grow up psychotic and wildly dysfunctional.

Comment author: thomblake 23 August 2012 08:35:24PM 1 point [-]

Fortunately, there are plenty of places outside of school where young humans can socialize with other young humans (especially if a lot of them aren't going to school!) - parks, martial arts dojos, neighborhoods, etc.

Comment author: Dolores1984 23 August 2012 09:14:38PM 5 points [-]

I was homeschooled, and, yes, that's true - but, it's really not the same level of exposure as being surrounded by other people your own age for the majority of every day. When I got to college, there was a massive relative deficit in basic social skills that I had to make up rather quickly.

Comment author: Alicorn 23 August 2012 09:23:22PM 3 points [-]

Why were adults unable to teach you those social skills?

Comment author: Dolores1984 23 August 2012 10:46:34PM 9 points [-]

Because the way you interact with small children is wildly, radically different from the way that either adults or children interact with their own peers. This is also a trend I've observed much more widely than just myself. Homeschooled children come out weird unless their parents are very, very aggressive about socialization, much more so than most people would consider reasonable.

Comment author: Vaniver 25 August 2012 05:33:02PM 3 points [-]

"Socialization" needs to be broken down a bit more, I suspect.

The trouble is that school-related socialization is very different from adult socialization. When you're locked in a box with other people for eight hours a day, you get to know them and make friends for geographic reasons.

Adults don't have that opportunity, though, and do have many other opportunities. Approaching someone because the teacher assigned you to do a group project together is different from approaching an attractive person at a bar.

It seems to me that homeschooling is better at teaching adult-style socialization (finding places where friends are likely, and then making friends there), which is way more useful than school-style socialization. But homeschooling typically doesn't include the sheer amount of socialization that school does, instead filling it with things are educational or fun. Which... seems like an acceptable tradeoff, to me.

Comment author: Dolores1984 25 August 2012 06:05:35PM 1 point [-]

I wish I could find some science on the subject, but all I can find with some cursory googling is one study with a 30-child sample size, and a bunch of angry homeschooling parents defending themselves against the accusation. I will simply say that, in my experience, I have not observed your predictions to be accurate.

There's a LOT of low-level socialization stuff that you mostly pick up by peer immersion (even near-neurological stuff like reading facial expressions). And then there's the confidence factor. It's easier to go into adulthood talking to people your own age if you've been talking to dozens or hundreds of people your own age every day your whole life. If you haven't, you're missing numerous social cues, and a good deal of confidence.

I mean, I came out relatively normal, minus some initial awkwardness -- but what you hear, frequently, is 'Oh, you're homeschooled? And you talk?" Which is not a particularly good sign.

Comment author: thomblake 24 August 2012 01:41:47PM 1 point [-]

I'm more familiar with "unschooled" children, who in my experience don't have these sorts of problems. I don't think any of their parents were particularly aggressive about socialization (or about anything) but they seemed to find plenty of opportunities to interact with people of all ages.

I really don't think it's helpful for children to socialize with lots of other children in an environment with few authority figures. They learn how to be brutal with each other and make up their own status games, rather than learning to be decent members of society.

Comment author: Dolores1984 24 August 2012 03:32:06PM 5 points [-]

Status games are a big, big part of the behavior most people consider to be 'being a decent member of society.'

Comment author: shminux 23 August 2012 09:34:58PM 1 point [-]

Possibly because Mirror neurons - you have to have someone to imitate.

Comment author: Alicorn 23 August 2012 09:38:22PM 3 points [-]

You could imitate the adults, surely, with some adjustments conveyed verbally? Unless all the adults around you are playing weird status games and you get swatted down for doing their "I am a grownup" status moves.

Comment author: Raemon 23 August 2012 09:49:07PM *  4 points [-]

There's a few problems with it -

The status games that adults play with each other are different from the status games they play with kids, and different from the games kids play with each other. Adults have power and responsibility that kids don't have, so to some extent, yes, kids are swatted down for "playing grownup." If you tried to fix that, you may well end up with alternate problems - when kids get into the college world where there's STILL a difference between peers and authority-figures, they may end up having trouble negotiating the differences.

On top of that, a homeschool environment is simply radically different in nature than college. You usually have a small number of adults interacting with a small number of kids, which changes the kind of attention and flexibility kids have with their "adult peers."

Some of this is a matter of conflict with a particular set of social norms - a society with different expectations of kids AND adults could hypothetically be a radical improvement over typical western societies. But it's a non-trivial problem to solve and it's not solved by just telling parents "treat your kids like peers" (because there are good reasons not to do that as well, children DO need authority figures of some sort)

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 23 August 2012 06:24:56PM 3 points [-]

The general belief is that school provides socialization, and that homeschooled kids who lack that tend to have poor social skills. Even if that wasn't true, it's a widely-shared belief, and a startup of this kind will need to address the fact that people believe in it.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 August 2012 06:05:24PM 1 point [-]

Do you think kids are better socialized at school than at work, staying with grandparents, or whatever else they would be doing if they weren't in school?

That way they only socialize with adults (unless they have siblings), not with other children (with ages similar enough to consider them their peers).

Comment author: Nornagest 17 August 2012 08:48:45PM *  3 points [-]

I don't think schools are likely to do a much better job of socializing their students than the various mechanisms in place before compulsory schooling; they probably do do a better job of conditioning students to accept a certain type of authority figure, but that's an argument that doesn't have any place in a business plan.

Those aren't the alternative here, though. The alternative is homeschooling or whatever improvement on contemporary homeschooling we can produce. And having known a few homeschooled kids in my time, I'd have to say that no, they aren't socialized as well on average as conventionally educated students. I'd speculate that this is due mainly to missing out on a large set of potential social contacts -- many themselves poorly socialized, of course, but also including quite a few adults involved with the school system or with schoolfriends. That's all anecdotal, but I don't think I've ever seen a controlled study and am not sure how you'd design one.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 August 2012 09:23:58AM 1 point [-]

socializing its students

Voluntary meetups for website users could provide a similar effect.

offloading enough caregiver burden for both parents

Yep, this one is the real problem. Free childcare in a noble disguise of education, this is why we like our school system! A possible solution would be cooperating with various existing child care systems -- they provide the child care, you provide additional interesting content they can use.

Comment author: DaFranker 17 August 2012 08:44:23PM 5 points [-]

The market is most likely still larger than sufficient for the enterprise to be worth it. I only have personal WAG estimates to rely on, but it's pretty hard to get market data on a currently-counterfactual service that people have never even seen.

Anecdotally, out of a sample size of over 60 high school students, at least 8 (including myself) had confirmed to me they would definitely jump right on any alternative form of education that would still be officially recognized, since here homeschooling is very, very difficult to get approved and recognized as equivalent to a standard education. A single institution that you just sign up, and work through the material, and perhaps attend meetings to socialize, but that isn't bogged down by all the problems of shitty teachers and teacher-politics and crappy coursework? That would have (and still does) sounded like an utopian dream by comparison to the dreary and painful system we were stuck in.

Of course, that's just the students themselves, and parents are a different problem to solve too. However, 10-15% of high school students is not a small market. I'm quite certain (.98) that there are at least twice as many people with strong objections to the curriculum or other aspects as there are who actually do use current alternatives, simply by factoring in the amount of people held back by legal / institutional restrictions that require the child to go through regular compulsory education. From what I understand, bypassing this hurdle is exactly the primary service of this hypothetical company.

Also, as long as you can keep the total cost of the company's services for one child equal or under the current standard costs of compulsory education without sacrificing superior education quality, the inherent scalability of the proposed teaching techniques will mean that as your clientbase grows, your ability to provide workspaces, study groups and competent staff increases, which would further expand the market and clientbase, and then...

Yeah, lots of optimistic and positive thinking there. However, I'd really like to do what I can to save other people from the depressive ugh field that I got stuck into throughout high school - an ugh field that eventually killed my hopes of "things getting better" by the time I got to cégep and realized that even there, perfect answers with clear, written reasoning on a math test was still only worth 75% if you didn't have the right passwords (though I didn't think of it in these particular terms at the time, but that's what it was).

A good solution to those problems would have meant less time wasted in high school, and not dropping out of cégep, for this particular individual. Which, incidentally, also means I wouldn't have gotten this job with a ton of free time to read LessWrong, but that's another story.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 17 August 2012 07:44:48AM 7 points [-]

Related idea: semi-computerized instruction.

To the best of my (limited) knowledge, while there are currently various computerized exercises available, they aren't that good at offering instruction of the "I don't understand why this step works" kind, and are often pretty limited (e.g. Khan Academy has exercises which are just multiple choice questions, which isn't a very good bad format). One could try to offer a more sophisticated system - first, present experienced teachers/tutors with a collection of the problems you'll be giving to the students, and ask them to list the most common problems and misunderstandings that the students tend to have with such problems. Then attempt to build a system which will recognize the symptoms of the most common misunderstandings and attempt to provide advice on them, also offering the student the opportunity to ask it themselves using some menu system or natural language parser. (I know some existing academic work along these lines exists, I think applying Bayes nets to build up a model of the students' skills and understanding, but I couldn't find the reference in the place where I thought that I had read it.)

Of course, there will frequently be situations where your existing database fails to understand the student's need. So you combine this with the chance to ask help online, either on a forum with other students, or one-on-one with a paid tutor in an interactive chat session. As the students' problems are resolved, the maintainers follow the conversations and figure out a way for the system to recognize the new problems in the future, either automatically or via the "ask a question" menus.

In particular, the system would be built so that having e.g. forgotten some of the prerequisites in a previous course wouldn't be a problem - if that happened, the system would just automatically lead you to partially rehearse those concepts enough that you could apply them to solve the current problem. At the same time, it could be designed that all of the previous knowledge was being constantly drawn upon, thus providing a natural method for spaced repetition.

This method is naturally most suited for math-like subjects with clear right/wrong answers. But if one wanted to get really ambitious, they could eventually expand the system so as to create a single unified school course that taught everything that's usually taught in high school, abandoning the artificial limits between subjects. E.g. a lesson during which you traveled back in time to witness an important battle (history), helped calculate the cannon ball trajectories for one of the sides (physics), stopped to study a wounded soldier and the effects of the wounds on his body (human biology), and then finally helped the army band play the victory song (music)... or something along those lines. Ideally, there'd be little difference between taking a school lesson and playing a good computer game.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 August 2012 04:38:02PM 2 points [-]

This method is naturally most suited for math-like subjects with clear right/wrong answers.

Having worked with online homework systems in mathematics for the past three years, let me say a thing -- even in mathematics, there are only clear right/wrong answers in trivial cases. It may be mostly anecdotal, but there is weak evidence that the written correspondence between professor and student that manually-graded homework provides is important to the learning process in mathematics.

In general I'm heavily skeptical of gamification.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 August 2012 05:09:15PM 1 point [-]

Peer pressure and the desire to surpass your heroes seem like a large part of why teachers and other students are so important however. If at some point a teaching simulator of this caliber is created, we could integrate a ranking system where you are automatically connected with people at a similar level to compete, and you can level up by helping people with problems as well (To continue the idea of gamification to its logical extreme...) The systems which let people learn in competetive games like starcraft are amazing, and if they were properly applied to useful education at least some people would benefit tremendously.

Comment author: cicatriz 17 August 2012 04:19:03PM 4 points [-]

There is an academic field around this called intelligent tutoring systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_tutoring_system). The biggest company with an ITS, as far as I know, is Carnegie Learning, which provides entire K-12 curricula for it: books, teacher training, software. CL has had mixed evaluations in the past, but I think a fair conclusion at this point is that ITS significantly improves learning outcomes when implemented in an environment where they are able to use software as it's intended to be used (follow the training, spend enough time, etc).

As far as I know there isn't anything quite like this in a widely deployed online system with community discussion as you suggest. Grockit (http://grockit.com) is a social test prep site that is familiar with the ITS community and uses some principles. Khan Academy is continuing to improve, but I can't say whether they will reach the state of the art as far as intelligent tutors go. I'd say there's definitely an opportunity for more ITS in online learning now, but it isn't easy to build.

The Wikipedia article is OK. One example of a recent paper is http://users.wpi.edu/~zpardos/papers/zpardos-its-final22.pdf which also shows some of the human work that goes into modeling the knowledge domain for an ITS.

Comment author: abramdemski 17 August 2012 06:16:42AM 4 points [-]

This Company starts in the United States and ties into existing home school regulations with a self-driven web learning program that requires minimum parental involvement and results in a high school degree.

The nice thing about this is that it works on an existing market, while leveraging the successful tactics discovered through hard work by Coursera & the like to bring advances to the domain.

Of course, techniques designed for university courses may not precisely transfer.

I'm skeptical about 'leveraging' videos from Khan Academy for a for-profit education system. Makes it sound half-baked.

This idea may fit with the general spaced-repetition enthusiasm I am seeing in other proposals.

It cloaks itself as merely a tool to aid homeschool parents, similar to existing mail-order tutoring materials, hiding its radical mission to end high school as we know it.

...And you just blew your cover. :)

Comment author: jacoblyles 17 August 2012 06:42:58PM 2 points [-]

...And you just blew your cover. :)

Nobody of any importance reads Less Wrong :)

Comment author: DaFranker 17 August 2012 08:11:13PM 1 point [-]

...you just jinxed it! Now congress is going to pass a new bill forbidding online aids to count towards compulsory education requirements for home schooling, and otherwise hamper the idea by whatever means necessary.

After all, what better propaganda system is there than a bunch of gullible "teachers" who regurgitate everything you tell them to and whom children look up to as absolute authorities?

Comment author: jacoblyles 18 August 2012 01:00:22AM 6 points [-]

Fortunately, the United States has a strong evangelical Christian lobby that fights for and protects home schooling freedom.

Comment author: DaFranker 18 August 2012 01:26:03AM 2 points [-]

Good point. I have a tendency to forget about them. Mind projection and all that.

Comment author: DaFranker 17 August 2012 08:49:25PM 3 points [-]

I'm skeptical about 'leveraging' videos from Khan Academy for a for-profit education system. Makes it sound half-baked.

Some selected public or private schools are already doing this, with great results from what little data I've seen. The feedback from the children themselves, at the very least, is impressive - the vast majority of them allegedly report (in less sciencey words) a vast improvement in their reasoning skills and their enthusiasm, motivation and enjoyment of mathematics, sciences, and studying in general.

Unfortunately, this is still on an extremely insignificantly small scale, with only a handful of teachers spread out over 4-6 schools doing this, some of them with direct collaboration from Khan Academy IIRC.

Comment author: cicatriz 17 August 2012 12:57:54AM 4 points [-]

Your approach -- targeting home-schoolers who are "nonconsumers" of public K-12 education -- is exactly the approach advocated by disruption theory and specifically the book Disrupting Class. Using public education as analogous to established leaders in other industries, disruption always comes from the outside because the leaders aren't structurally able to do anything other than serve their consumers with marginal improvements.

ArtofProblemSolving.com is one successful example that's targeted gifted home-schoolers (and others looking for extracurricular learning) in math. I'm sure there are others. EdSurge.com is a good place to look for existing services, which you can sort by criteria including common core/state-standards aligned (you do have to register for free to get the list of resources). I also have thought about services that build on top of Khan Academy, but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to improve in that area. They just released a fantastic computer science platform. But they are a non-profit, so their growth depends, I suppose, on Bill Gates' mood and other philanthropy. To get to full disruption, it might take a for-profit with, as you suggest, monetization through tutoring and other valuable services.

Comment author: temujin9 06 October 2012 05:59:54PM *  2 points [-]

I work for a start-up, and I've worked for a number of them over the years. While it's been some of the best and most fulfilling work I've done, there are several things you need to consider.

1) Real start-ups (as opposed to ordinary new businesses) are a strange kind of betting game. They are long-shots that pay off extremely well if they hit, such that investors can afford to fund a hundred of them to get five that survive and one that hits big. This is a very different economic landscape from the one that your average job exists in, and many of your hard won beliefs about how a business works will be wrong.

2) The pay-off is pretty much all at the end, when you (maybe) hit big, or (maybe) get bought in a tech-and-talent acquisition, or (probably) get another higher paying job on the back of all the experience you've acquired. Terms like "ramen profitable" and "remaining runway" should give you a feel for the high-risk, high-stress, and questionable reward landscape that you're entering. This isn't easy, and it's hardest at the beginning, before you get customers and traction. It's also difficult on folks with family: the combination of low money, high stress, and long hours can be hard on life outside of work.

3) Remember what I said about "long-shot bets"? Your venture is probably going to fail, or everyone would already be doing something like it. Have a parachute handy, and a backup chute.

4) You will be doing work you weren't prepared for. No matter how large your comfort zone is, a good start-up will try to push you outside of it. You will agree to (or be tricked into) things you find you cannot do well, and so will everyone else around you. Getting good at handling failure (yours and others) is the only way you'll survive in the job long enough to see that pay-out.

5) There is kool-aid, and you have to drink at least a little. Take small sips, and above all, learn how to make the mix more palatable. Yes, this will mean dealing with (at times) people who are more or less completely irrational. You're doing something good for the world, and sometimes that means getting your hands dirty.

Further reading: Paul Graham, founder of Y-Combinator has lots of well-written ideas about (among other things) start-ups. There are undoubtedly others, but none leap to mind quite so readily.

(That all said: I'm a start-up addict. I will probably be working them, in some form or another, until I die. So if your start-up needs heavy back-end IT resource, I might be able to help you get tooled up . . . and if you want to work in an existing start-up with -- warning: kool-aid -- some of the hottest Big Data tools out there, let me know, because we're hiring.)

Comment author: gwern 11 September 2012 01:13:26AM 1 point [-]

Update: Sinak's SRS system as reviewed by Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4496647

Comment author: bcoburn 11 September 2012 01:38:52AM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure about the rest of the app, but the bookmarklet seems like a ridiculously good idea. The 'trivial inconvenience' of actually making cards for things is really brutal, anything that helps seems like a big deal.

Comment author: haig 31 August 2012 08:52:22PM 1 point [-]

Surprised no one has mentioned anything involving sustainable/clean tech (energy, food, water, materials). This site does stress existential threats, and I'd think that, given many (most?) societal collapses in the past were precipitated, at least partly, by resource collapse, I'd want to concentrate much of the startup activity around trying to disrupt our short-term wasteful systems. Large pushes to innovate and disrupt the big four (energy, food, water, materials) would do more than anything I can think of to improve the condition of our world and minimize the major risks confronting us within the next 100 years (or sooner).

It's not as hopeless as it appears on first glance. Population growth will reach about 9-10 billion people within 50 years (not much more do to lower birth rates as developing countries have less children and developed countries go into negative population growth) so that is the carrying capacity to aim for. Decoupling the big four from the unpredictability of scarcity, monocrops, climate change, and depletion/destruction by not only using innovations in the specific domains, but using advanced information technologies and algorithms (operations research, stigmergic routing, ..) would be the first time our planet is placed on a secure and sustainable foundation for our basic resource needs. If there is any other large, audacious goal that would change the world positively more than this (other than a positive singularity) I can't think of it.

Comment author: moocow1452 28 August 2012 01:34:44PM *  2 points [-]

Wanted to save this one for the Reverse Kickstarter, but it's too important to be kept in my brain without a backup, so here's my ace in the hole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocal_recognition

This tech exists, it is out there, I have tried to contact some of the people at NASA to no avail. (Should probably give them a little longer than 24 hours, but I only found out about those experiments yesterday. I did email them, and that's what counts.) Make this a pick up for stream of consciousness logging, allow me to parse it, or add stuff to the calendar or draft up an email by thinking about it, <give my phone psudotelepathy,> and I would owe a blood debt, probably a couple digits or a limb to whoever brings it into reality, because I think a lot faster than I can verbalize things, and something that can take my wandering thoughts and let me put them together after the fact would be a quantum leap in organizational skills everywhere.

Free free to contact moocow1452@gmail.com or under the post, and I'll keep an eye on how to move forward.

Comment author: lukedoolittle 11 September 2012 05:10:13PM 1 point [-]

Dunno if I would be too much of a help but I work for a company that develops EMG amplifiers and recording / analysis software. I'm on the EEG line but am close with the clinical specialists on the EMG line. Ping me if there is anything I could do to assist.

Comment author: RomanDavis 27 August 2012 03:08:31AM 5 points [-]

Food Subscription Service. The natural extreme on the Just In Time pipeline applied to food. This means less wasted food at every stage, and gets you all the benefits of buying/ selling in bulk, meaning the potential for lower price and other gains from trade.

Comment author: moocow1452 28 August 2012 03:11:01PM *  1 point [-]

http://www.amazon.com/Subscribe-Save-Grocery/b?ie=UTF8&node=251482011

Came up after a quick Google Search, I also know that Amazon Fresh is serving the Seattle area.

Comment author: RomanDavis 29 August 2012 12:54:28AM 1 point [-]

A quick look shows that the savings on the customer end aren't very good, not even comparable to a good discount store, or even buying in very large bulk amounts. And from reading some of the posts, it looks like super saver shipping doesn't apply, which is the only thing that would make it worth it.

In my head, I was picturing an old school sort of "drive through" grocery, because I don't think there's really a way to make the delivery of goods that need to be cold/ fresh both affordable and timely. Never tried Amazon fresh, and have never lived in Seattle. Might be worth looking into how they do business.

Comment author: Mister 22 August 2012 12:58:42PM *  3 points [-]

A web community where users gather relevant information/media about recent news

Problem The internet is huge now. Information or media about stories in the news is all around but not always easy to find, especially in one focused area. That video this article mentioned. Those photos that were reported on. That relevant information only people with expertise sits on, that the journalists hasn't found because they have a tight schedule. It's out there, you just don't know it.

Solution A dedicated website where users gather this information from all the corners of the web. A community where everyone focus on finding that photo and enlighten each other.

Progress I've actually created that website.

As an example of how the site works, a user saw an article about french tourists who got suspended jail in Sri Lanka for taking demeaning photos next to a buddha statue. The user then created a "subject" about it, found here: http://upnorthtimes.com/index.php?option=com_categories&view=popularsubjects&layout=subjectdetails&subjectid=248

Later, that user set out to find those photos. After finding them, he created a discussion thread within the subject where he posted the website where they can be found: http://upnorthtimes.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=239&id=146&Itemid=267

Now users can see the photos for themselves and lay to rest the question of "wonder how bad those photos were?".

Obstacles We still have a few bugs to sort out. If you visit the site and the page loads everything to the left, just reload it until it loads correctly. There is also the matter of promoting the site correctly. If any of you have a good idea or want to help contribute/spread the site I would be thankful!

Comment author: buggy 22 August 2012 03:46:40PM 2 points [-]

I can see this expanding into news-like arenas, e.g.:

Friend of a friend had their dog pulled out of their car and tossed into traffic (you may remember the story). So friend starts a site to gather info on the suspect, and eventually they have enough of a profile and info that they handed the bolus to a private detective who busted the guy. (I have another friend with a stolen -- not lost -- pet, who would like to accrete info on the thief).

Or, a person was shot and killed in my neighborhood, and since people don't talk much 'round here, that crime will never be solved. But some people know his friends, some his enemies, some his work history, etc., and if you put enough of that info together, at a minimum when people google the victim, they'll end up on this site, where they might be able to add a datum or two. Eventually, maybe a clue forms.

Basically crowd-source crimestoppers/solutions to individual problems (rather than answering a generic question whose answer can be reused ... that market is cluttered).

Comment author: Persol 22 August 2012 02:57:49PM *  1 point [-]

This is a very good idea. Generally Google or Reddit works for this sort of thing, but focusing on aggregating news only is useful.

Few things:

  • How would you consider monetizing this? The online advertising bubble appears to be shrinking, as people realize minimal returns. For a similar website I've been considering an iP*/Android app, but the return still looks low.

  • Much of this information can be gathered automatically. The website I mentioned above is for an automated new summary generating site... which only works 90% of the time. For what you're doing, simply gathering and listing the information automatically is relatively easy.

  • Is moderation required to scale? I wonder if the topic resolution may not be agreed on for busy topics. Using the example above, one person may find the photos with Buddha. Another may find video of it. You may end up with a video thread, a photo thread and a thread with both. Using another example, at what point is a new Curiosity rover discussion a new 'subject'. If they find little green men I'd expect a new subject... but what if the rover gets flipped upside down? You can let users decide this, but you'll likely end up with users making multiple versions of the same article/subject/thread.

Comment author: Mister 22 August 2012 05:08:27PM 1 point [-]

Monetizing: If the site gets popular, I am considering a pay-for-privilege service. Ads may or may not pay off though.

Regarding moderation: Yes, there are no "rules" of how this works yet. But with the limited activity there is now, this is not a problem. If the site grows then I would like these rules to evolve naturally, so I don't limit the creativity of the community.

Comment author: woodside 22 August 2012 12:11:59PM *  6 points [-]

Rough Idea: Send brilliant, destitute kids to great schools from an early age in exchange for a percentage of their lifetime earnings.

Depending on the study you read there are up to hundreds of millions of children in the developing world that are in the primary/middle school age range that will never get the chance to attend a school. Some of these children have the genetic potential to be top tier in terms of intelligence and productivity but will never realize this potential.

Develop a cost-effective selection mechanism for finding these diamonds in the rough and present them with a deal. They are moved to a top-level boarding school in a developed country (This could be a partnership with existing schools or a school developed specifically for this program, maybe there is a year long english prep trial school they go to first, there are many details to consider). In exchange they commit to paying some percentage (10% feels about right as a gut-check) of their income to the company for the rest of their lives (maybe there is an option to buy out of the contract for kids that end up sufficiently wealthy, again, many details to consider).

Biggest issues I see:

  • The program will take many years, potentially 2 decades, to start generating revenue.
  • A host of legal hurdles
  • Social/litigious blowback from groups that don't like the idea of plucking third world children from their families and signing them up for what may be interpreted as indentured servitude
  • Reliably selecting the right kids may turn out to be prohibitively expensive
Comment author: pjeby 10 September 2012 08:34:57PM 1 point [-]

Rough Idea: Send brilliant, destitute kids to great schools from an early age in exchange for a percentage of their lifetime earnings.

Have you read The Unincorporated Man for some fictional evidence of how this idea turns out? ;-)

Comment author: PhilGoetz 10 September 2012 03:43:46AM *  2 points [-]

You don't pluck them from their families, because you can't do this in the US or Europe anyway. You build the schools in the other countries. You're not going to send them to Harvard. The point is not to get them hooked into the US old-boy network so they can win grants or get venture capital or work for Goldman-Sachs. The point is to get them an education, which is not what top-tier US schools are for anyway.

In the US, I think the law prevents you from doing this, unless you're the military.

Comment author: Desrtopa 10 September 2012 04:57:45AM 2 points [-]

Well, if it's for-profit venture, then the point isn't to get them an education, the point is to prepare them for lucrative careers, in which case social capital is of high importance.

Comment author: buggy 21 August 2012 08:31:36PM 4 points [-]

Second, my concept ... essentially, borrowing money from your future self for something with a postive ROI expectation value.

Economists can (OK, do) roughly value certain life milestones, such as the increase in lifetime earnings for finishing high school (for the sake of this discussion, let's use $500K for that number). They also believe that certain goals (e.g. passing grades for a semester) can be cash-incentivized. So you let an individual borrow a portion of their future benefit (10%? $50K buys a lot of incentive from a HS student) in the present, with a promise to repay that over a very long time period at a very low interest rate (something that works out to about 20% in total repayments, before factoring inflation, if I had to peg it to something for the sake of argument). A website would have a schedule of incentive schemes, possibly scaled by degree-of-difficulty (passing grades being tougher for weaker students, e.g.), and upon meeting the short-term milestones of that goal, and the final goal itself, incentives would be paid out. This could apply to any process that has a {present value of all future returns} greater than the amount needed to repay: reduced medical costs for weight reduction and smoking-cessation, job certifications (passing a CPA or actuarial exam), time off from work to acquire a work-related skill, cost of improving a home/installing energy-reducing features, etc. Yeah, some of those may not work, but I'm sure there's no shortage of quantifiable processes or goals with a positive future ROI. & I can see that measurement could be tricky, but in the school example we could have schools sign on to the program, in the certification example we get a copy of the certification from the certifying body, etc.

There's an additional monetary multiplier, in that the younger version (the borrower) is almost certainly in a lower income bracket than the older version (the lender), and the money is valued more highly ... I'd happily give $20 inflation-adjusted dollars (a pittance now) to my younger self just to go have fun with (who felt $20 was a lot of money), even taking into account that I wish I'd worked/studied harder when I was younger so I could coast more now. And when it comes time to repay the loan, the fact that I am effectively repaying myself might reduce deadbeatedness.

Of course, not everyone will repay their loans, and the payoff in this venture would be very long-term. So who would provide the seed money for this until repayments match outlays? Well: - The same people who loan money to Kiva, not to make a profit, but because they believe incentivizing people is more effective than aid, and if they make a few dollars off it eventually, that's gravy - The same people who give gift annuities to schools (a similar mechanism) - Foundations with money to invest and an ethical dictate to do something with that money - People trying to solve long-term problems (eradicating diseases, improving the education system) who just want their money to do the best thing possible - Alumni of the program who see the value (the same way universitites have an easy time getting money from graduates who believe school was one reason they have high incomes) - People who see it as a Very Good Idea and choose to fund that instead of a non-profit (I understand you personally may not consider it a VGI, but weaker concepts have attracted more money)

Please proceed to poke holes/refine. thnx. -b.

Comment author: gwern 25 August 2012 01:27:51AM 2 points [-]

Isn't this just the same as Hanson's idea on investors giving out student loans in exchange for return from future income, but with caps on totals?

Comment author: Davidmanheim 24 August 2012 04:04:21PM 2 points [-]

I love this idea, in theory. (Are you willing to start devoting time to the idea?)

The question is how to run a trial for this. Do you start with high schoolers? Or college students? (There are some real advantages there...) If it's a couple of $500 loans, there are plenty of people who would fund them. The infrastructure would be harder. Perhaps in could be run through the college, or as part of a new type of college loan program. (Speaking of which, why are those loan rate so high? Could we do better - because 8% is not a good deal for a cash advance on future earnings!)

Practical questions: 1) Can a minor (High School age) sign a legally binding contract? Who would do so for them? 2) Are monetary incentives a good idea for long term incentification of learning? There are studies that show that when monetary incentives are used, they undermine other sources of motivation. 3) Would they misuse the money (I'd hate to incentivize a teen into buying a iPad so they can waste their time and ruin their academics afterwards...)

I would be thrilled to help with $500 pre-loan incentives for good grades in engineering classes: we need more engineers, and they make good money, even if they starve in college. But are those the students that need further motive to do well in school?

Comment author: Larks 24 August 2012 03:22:46PM 3 points [-]

Is this very different from just taking out a loan?

Comment author: buggy 28 August 2012 09:27:38PM 1 point [-]

For those asking how this is different from a loan, the important difference is that you don't get money just for saying you want to take money from your future self, you get money for achieving metrics that you and the lenders have decided will get you to a pre-selected goal. That goal can be as much about what the lenders want, as what you want (hopefully there will be an intersection between the two sets). And you don't get the money based on creditworthiness, but rather the expected gain in future earnings/benefit that getting the loan (and reaching the goals) will achieve. And the schedule of achievements (and payments) will almost certainly be determined (or at least approved) by the lender ... although I guess a potential borrower could solicit the site/a lender to come up with a schedule for a certain goal and/or pre-determined schedules could taken by the lowest bidder in an open market.

Comment author: buggy 21 August 2012 08:29:41PM 4 points [-]

First, a meta-discussion ... I think when a lot of people hear the word "startup" they think two things: long hours in an under-funded environment, and the hope of a short-term payoff (or at least an exit strategy). This may be incompatible with the idea of pulling a bunch of hours away from a bunch of bright people already involved in other things. It may also be counter-productive to the goal of benefiting people: one of the shortcomings of established corporations is the focus on near-term gains, even at the cost of long-term viability or benefits -- that mindset is exponentially worse in a time-accelerated enviro with a burn-rate that implies a near-future mortality for the corporate corpus.

Personally, if someone told me I had to do just 2 more years of what I went through with a startup in order to never work again, I'd say "no thanks". And while I'm happy to pitch in some time on concepts that either help humanity or personally enrich me (and am extra-eager if we can tie the two together), I'm not leaving my 30-hour-a-week, slippers-&-bathrobe-dress-code, commute-to-the-livingroom business any time soon (although I would if I got involved in something hugely beneficial and moderately profitable). So, I think some of the ideas already mentioned about marrying interests and abilities with different classes of start-ups need implementation if this is going to move from some sort of communal stew to a concrete business with distinct individuals making discrete contributions. [Aside: I think that's a start-up possibility right there ... a mechanism that allows arbitrary-sized contributions to a project (think open-source), but has some (community) basis for valuing those contributions, so when the cash starts rolling in, people can be compensated roughly in proportion to their contributions (yes, this is probably a harder problem than most of the startups suggested here). Thought exercise: if someone gave $1B "to Linux" (sic) for contributions to humanity, how would that money be doled out to contributors?]

Ideas with long payoff time frames are generally not good candidates for startups (unless the founders are willing to light their money on fire just because it's something they just want to see done), which limits the scope of things that can be done in a "non-philanthropic" enviro. I think you also need to delineate classes of businesses: some people will see the philanthropy angle as a mere selling tool to generate funding/interest; other people are interested in "doing good", and have ideas for companies that won't work any better as non-profits than for-profits.

So, for me: I'd like to contribute SOME time to a project with public benefit, and if I happen to get some money out of it down the road, I can decide to commit more time and/or consider that gravy. I've had a web design/hosting business (mostly LAMP) for about 15 years, and do a little bit of most things tangentially associated with that.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 22 August 2012 01:10:51AM 3 points [-]

My experience with the Rejuvenate people is quite different - basically, if you are someone like a coach who can generate high income/hour but doesn't work many hours, you just outsource everything.

Coaches (who have taken marketing courses) usually make $97+/hr, so in that position, if you can pay someone $10-50/hr, to do a few hours of work for you - usually they get more done/hour on tasks like cleaning, filing, and basic website development anyway, and then you use a fraction of the time they save you on marketing and doing coaching, and easily make it back while spending much less time working.

If you're someone who can make a lot of money consulting or programming, do a little contract work, and hire college students to do all the work you don't want to for your projects. Have them help you come up with systems that you can easily teach new people if they quit, and you save a lot of time and stress and work that is not what you want to be doing.

I'm working on developing a program with that sort of material for this crowd (decided it was higher leverage use of my time than individual coaching/counseling after seeing the response on this post) - I'd love to quiz you (or anyone else interested) about the topics you'd most like to see covered for making your life better, easier, and more successful when doing start-ups. If you're interested, email me - shannon dot friedman at positivevector dot com. I have a ton of information I've collected through that program and other sources already, so I'm trying to figure out which pieces are highest impact to focus on for this crowd.

Comment author: moocow1452 21 August 2012 11:59:12PM 2 points [-]

Was going to make this it's own post, but what about a micro job placement center? A Job-Starter?

Based of AltonSun's reverse Kickstarter, this would be more of a converse Kickstarter or something on par with Craigslist or Fiverr, where people can be sign up to be notified about opportunities for PayPal cash, gift cards, or equivalent wealth for work done that they are skilled in. Unlike Amazon's Mechanical Turk, this would allow for a semi-sustainable income through bigger job prizes, and more variety of work then "transcribe this" or "take data from here to there" for pennies on the dollar, where the jobs can come to you and are further incentivized through gamification or whatnot in the name of prioritization. Maybe I'm asking for too much for nothing, but it is crazy insane hard to find a job where I live, let alone one that won't take a crap on you for minimum wage and you can easily be replaced as a crap receptacle by someone more agreeable.

Maybe take it in a different direction, something like Wealthy Affiliate where you can get the resources to self start, but instead of paying per month and letting it fall into Gym Membership Stagnation, make a bootable usb or an app on your phone that locks you into better productivity habits and out of bad habits, where you can pay your own bills, and toss away the key. About anyone who procrastinates has a market in that, either to make better use of their time, or to bully and coach people who aren't.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 21 August 2012 07:05:39PM *  12 points [-]

I'm not sure if this is the kind of project you were thinking of at all, but a friend and I have been brainstorming about starting a restaurant that's optimized to serve, primarily, autistic people, and secondarily, people with other disabilities, particularly mental/emotional ones like social anxiety. Notable differences from a regular restaurant are that ordering will be entirely computerized (enabling nifty features like being able to have the computer remember and act on each diner's preferred/dispreferred/forbidden foods list) with an option but not a default of talking to a waiter, all tables will have built-in textual communication devices to allow diners to communicate with anyone in the restaurant (including waiters and management), the restaurant will have a silent section where even talking is forbidden and private rooms that can be reserved ahead of time, the menu will be optimized to allow for personalization of items in terms of content, size, order of presentation, and so on, and the decor will be designed to be sensorily inoffensive while also providing detailed descriptions of local norms via signage.

It will also make a point of hiring autistic people for all positions including management, and avoiding suppliers that donate to Autism Speaks while donating to the Autistic Self Advocacy Network as possible.

Our thoughts on the project so far are collected here - I'm sure I've forgotten some important things even given the length of the above infodump :). (Also, contacting me there will work better than contacting me here after the next few days - I'm not actually following LW anymore; I only knew about this because Alicorn told me.)

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 21 August 2012 10:36:03AM 22 points [-]

Better bra sizing.

It's an idea I've been kicking around for a few days. The technical and marketing-based obstacles towards getting it to work have turned me off pursuing it, but I figured it was worth sharing.

I work with operational databases for a luxury fashion retailer, and bra sizing as it currently exists (back size + cup size) makes absolutely no sense. I will sometimes ask female friends to explain how the size given for a garment can possibly be of any use in determining comfort and fit. Their answer: it doesn't.

Their actual answer tends to be a rant about inconsistency between product ranges and how contemporary bra sizing is next to useless. A couple have been both eloquent and insightful. A few times a year I'll have an idea I get excited about turning into some sort of web-based service, and in spite of its silly-sounding nature, this one is easily the one that's had the most philanthropic weight behind it.

The idea: a website containing a comprehensive list of commercially available bras. Users sign up, locate bras they own (or have tried on) and rate them along various measures of comfort/fit/support, etc. The service then locates clusters of users with similar preferences to them (exact method of analysis still up for debate, but a few likely candidates stand out), and suggests specific sizes and ranges that would meet their needs.

There are three sides to this. The first is users getting the service described above. The second is the option to license out the size/fit data to interested third parties, such as manufacturers and retailers, which would probably be the most sizeable revenue stream. The third is the possibility of using the data to produce a better sizing scheme that more accurately tackles the real-world problem.

I see two main problems with the idea. The first is encouraging user uptake (convincing women to spend time inputting details about their underwear into a website). The second, which is related, is giving them incentive to do so without the recommendation algorithm in place. I have no idea if k-NN or spectral partitioning or probabilistic classifiers or regression analysis will be any good at all in carving up the data appropriately, and I won't know until I get a sizeable set of data to develop against. There'd need to be an existing service provision for the users to encourage them to sign up and provide the data before the interesting work even begins. An existing comprehensive list of commercially available bras complete with a flat non-super-stats-enhanced rating system might be enough to get the ball rolling.

I should reiterate that I'm unlikely to pursue this idea. While I have a background in web dev, data analysis and technical fashion retail, I'm far from an expert in any of them. Still, if anyone wants to convince me otherwise, give me more reasons why it's a bad idea, or steal it outright, please go ahead.

Comment author: atucker 21 August 2012 04:41:59PM 5 points [-]

Oooh, great idea!

Something that requires less data to get off the ground:

Just try and figure out what reasonable bra size measurements might be, measure those, and tell people how to find their own measurements so that they can just buy bras that fit.

That presupposes that there's an actual set of measurements that would be reasonable, but I think that that's fairly likely.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 21 August 2012 11:38:32PM 4 points [-]

There's an underlying question to the whole endeavour: are conventional bra sizes doing a good job of a hard task, or a bad job of an easy task? Is it relatively simple to classify the shapes of women's bodies, and standard back/cup sizes are the wrong tool, or is aforementioned classification really hard, and standard sizing is doing a sterling job of it?

I suspect it's probably neither, and standard sizing is doing a terrible job of a hard task. I tried making a few simple topological models, and it turns out breasts are actually quite complicated, but there's no reason to assume the standard sizing scheme is optimal for the task, so gains can definitely be made somewhere. I don't think just trying to figure them out is an option, though. It's a question of how women's bodies categorise, and the only way to answer that is with the data.

Comment author: David_Gerard 21 August 2012 11:47:09AM 10 points [-]

Anecdotal evidence from female friends suggests that if you can make bra sizing not suck, you will indeed make life quite a bit better for quite a lot of people.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 21 August 2012 02:42:37PM 9 points [-]

It seems to touch upon an incredibly raw nerve. Many of my friends are quite thoughtful and verbose people anyway, but I get the impression some of them could talk for hours about their dissatisfaction with bra sizing. If nothing else, it's given me a good heuristic for spotting potential consumer interest: follow the moaning.

Comment author: Strange7 21 August 2012 11:59:21PM 4 points [-]

You might be able to get a certain number of people to sign up just by making a credible effort to pursue a fully general solution at all. Work out ballpark figures for how much it would cost to construct a sufficiently detailed topological model, gather a starting dataset, etc., add it all up, put your proposal on Kickstarter.

Comment author: Strange7 01 March 2013 03:15:18AM 3 points [-]

http://www.bratabase.com/pages/shapes/

When an idea is so brilliant you're amazed nobody has thought of it before, consider the alternate hypothesis that there's a specialized field of study you simply don't know about.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 01 March 2013 10:52:45AM 1 point [-]

So specialised that in spite of kicking this idea around for the better part of the month, I still didn't come across it.

Comment author: shminux 21 August 2012 08:34:22PM 1 point [-]

Presumably better matching would lead to more sales, so the standard revenue stream from something like that is a cut from the redeemed discount coupons offered to the customers by the retailers or manufacturers through the matching site.

Comment author: moocow1452 21 August 2012 06:00:29PM 3 points [-]

What about a Maker-Bra, a CNC designed for rendering articles of clothing out of base fabrics and plastics?

Comment author: Alicorn 21 August 2012 05:07:15PM 6 points [-]
Comment author: moocow1452 20 August 2012 11:30:23AM 2 points [-]

Lendle's for sale...

http://lendle.tumblr.com/post/23184237439/for-sale

They're looking for low six figures afaik, but I figure I should at least bring it to the table.

Comment author: gworley 19 August 2012 11:41:02PM *  13 points [-]

Let me just toss out some caution here.

I'm all for getting excited and making stuff happen. Maybe it really is that there have not yet been any LW startups because we all just failed to coordinate on it and in hindsight we'll all say "why the hell did we all wait for so long". That said, let's not forget a few key things here.

  • Most startups fail
  • even when the principals are smart and motivated
  • even when the idea is really good
  • even when [x] is [y]

And, as I already said, for some reason we haven't already had a bunch of successful LW startups. It's certainly not for lack of smart people, entrepreneurs, or technical skills.

If a LW startup is going to succeed, I think we would benefit from understanding first why we don't already have successful LW startups (not even one).

Comment author: moocow1452 20 August 2012 02:53:44AM *  0 points [-]

Occam's Razor says that no one on Less Wrong has ever suggested making a start up before now, ergo, it hasn't happened. Granted, Shannon's a Productivity manager and brings that slant to us as a post, and a lot of us crazy kids are willing to cut loose and bring stuff to the table, but as for why it hasn't happened before now... I dunno.

EDIT: ^

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 20 August 2012 03:00:18AM *  8 points [-]

Thanks for voicing this. A lot of people said similar things to me privately before I posted the article. Apparently a lot of people have tried similar attempts to this article and had them massively down voted and go nowhere. I'm very thankful that these people shared their concerns with me, because if I hadn't gotten that feedback, I would not have put nearly as much effort into editing and honing, and almost certainly would have bombed as well.

I have a lot of thoughts on this - I'm currently just finishing a course by the Rejuvenate people that teaches coaches and holistic practitioners how to create successful businesses. I've been inspired both by the workshop and the comments in this article to switch niches from working with people who are depressed, to creating a program that combines what I'm learning with Rejuvenate and my knowledge of Less Wrong types and futurists in general. (what they teach totally worked for me - I took their program "Double Your Practice in 90 Days" and quadrupled my (small) income in a month, after coaching for years) Working on this problem of helping people in the community implement their ideas successfully is so much higher leverage than anything else I can think of that I could do.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 20 August 2012 03:38:06AM *  4 points [-]

Also worth noting - there have been many start-ups in the Less Wrong and extended community already, some of which are very successful, such as Quixey. it just seems like from what I've seen talent wise in the community, there should be a lot more start ups than there are, and a relatively high percentage of those should be extremely profitable compared to the average start-up.

Comment author: toner 20 August 2012 02:38:12PM *  4 points [-]

Quixey is incredibly successful. Also, LessWrong is still young. Give it time! There may be a bunch of startups out there we haven't heard of yet. For example, I'm doing a startup with 3 other LWers, but we need a little longer before we're successful ;-)

Comment author: Bruno_Coelho 24 August 2012 01:18:35AM 2 points [-]

I don't feel LessWrong young. OB 2006 posts are extremely past to me, even if a different site.

But If we consider LW a internet startup, the site is doing pretty fine, since the failure rate is 25% for US. For the first three year, the rate of sucess is 65%, 51% for 5 years. Besides having a core content written in a unusual language.

Comment author: gworley 20 August 2012 12:07:15AM 9 points [-]

Just to toss in my own strongest suspicion. Among LWers under 25, they probably see themselves as young and still learning and not yet brave enough to throw themselves all in to something. For those over 25, they (myself included) probably see themselves as already busy doing something and would need some pretty strong motivation to do something else, even if it does align with core values.

Comment author: JoshuaFox 19 August 2012 08:54:18AM *  20 points [-]

A certification system to replace high-school and college.

With the explosion in independent study on all education levels, certification is the main missing piece. One solution is tests. For example, Pearson's is offering this service to Udacity students. However, certification-by-testing has had a hard time getting prestige. In the high-status parts of the software industry, getting Java/Microsoft/etc. certification is a slight negative on your job value -- i.e., one is expected to countersignal.

So, we need a certification system that succeeds at serving as a signal.

What successful examples can we find? The actuarial industry has a system of advancement with ten exams. There is no requirement to get a certain degree to take them. The top level is considered an intellectual achievement roughly equivalent to a PhD.

Perhaps the certification we're offering should test useless skills which require a long time to acquire, proving that one is not just smart but hard-working. Compare Latin in earlier periods, and the software language Scheme (a language used mostly for theory, not for product development) in the software industry today.

The usual trappings of signaling, like association with prestigious people, would be an essential part of the marketing.

Comment author: Xeuton 04 September 2012 09:11:33AM 1 point [-]

It seems like testing is the go-to idea among contributors thus far for determining whether a person has achieved the level of proficiency in a field that would be commensurate with earning a diploma from a reputable accredited university, but while I have no data to support the following conjecture, I wonder whether electonic testing is even a valid method of determining anything but memory recall at a specific point or set of points in time, if the testing involves multiple steps (i.e. midterms and final).

Why not use projects commisioned or suggested by interested corporations, involving the use of teamwork/teambuilding, leadership, logistics, creativity, and work ethic, while also providing opportunities for prospective employees - people who may have been using Khan Academy alone for years and have not developed the contacts and overall sense of common academic context college students develop over time - to develop those all-important working relationships. Additionally this would allow employers to have more control over the skillsets they actively seek out, and give self-teaching students an opportunity to understand the kind of skills that will actually get them where they want to go in their careers.

Corporations or individuals would use paid accounts to have the opportunity to work with our teams to determine the kind of project that would most help them find the talents they need, and also help determine the conditions of success.

Projects ideally would have practical applications and real-world effects, and any sucessful projects that end up turning their own profit would have predetermined payout models to distribute income between the patron, our company, and the actual prospects who worked on the project itself.

Students who wished to try for a project would could pay a one-time fee to have a lifetime account, and if possible this fee should be able to be covered by as many forms of reputable student financial aid as possible.

It's 2:00 in the morning and I just got back from Burning Man so I doubt my idea is actually coherent or worth pursuing, but on the off chance it is a good idea, I will just post this now and hope it is productive and promotes thoughtful discussion, if not actual support. That said, if there are any holes in the business model or logic that you post and no one else decides to address them, I will take another crack at it tomorrow.

Comment author: JoshuaFox 04 September 2012 09:43:24AM *  2 points [-]

Collaboration, independent work, etc. are very valuable and are needed.

Supervised tests also have a role to play.

  1. It costs a lot to have an expert grade an entire project.
  2. Tests can be standardized, giving comparable results across ten thousand people. I don't know if 10,000 people could be useful asked to, for example, develop a PHP email webapp as their trial project without many versions of the solution leaked into the Internet.
  3. Supervised tests minimize the opportunity for cheating.
  4. If someone does a team project, then even if they did do their share, you don't know what specific skills they have.
  5. Studies of whether such tests correlate with other success metrics show that they do.
  6. Except for a tiny minority of hot-shots (too few to support a business, and they generally find their way in life anyway), the type of independent project that most people are capable of is too trivial to give insight into their abilities.
Comment author: Emile 26 August 2012 11:59:49AM 4 points [-]

Isn't that a bit what Stack Overflow is doing with their careers program? "I have 10 000 points on Stack Overflow" is certainly a sign of quality (more than a degree in CS from an average school, or 10 000 points on Reddit or LessWrong); plus potential employers can verify how exactly those points were obtained.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 22 August 2012 03:24:12AM 3 points [-]

Perhaps the certification we're offering should test useless skills which require a long time to acquire, proving that one is not just smart but hard-working. Compare Latin in earlier periods, and Scheme (a language used mostly for theory, not for product development) in the software industry today.

Latin was far from useless in 'earlier periods'. It allowed educated people from all over Europe to understand each other and contribute to a unified body of knowledge, much like English does today (but for much more than just Europe).

Comment author: JoshuaFox 22 August 2012 07:37:30AM 2 points [-]

Yes, but I'm thinking of the time period of roughly the first half of the twentieth century.

Comment author: clgroft 22 August 2012 03:08:04AM 3 points [-]

The actuarial industry has a system of advancement with ten exams.

Perhaps this is the key. Instead of coming up with our own replacement certification system, maybe we need to make it easier for companies and industries to create their own. They're the ones who know what matters for their own fields.

As an entry point, one might create an online job application builder. Questionnaires are easy (and probably not worth a startup), but if the application could have "code this" questions, and the answers were checked on the server, that could be a killer feature for tech companies.

Comment author: shminux 21 August 2012 08:37:38PM 2 points [-]

certification-by-testing has had a hard time getting prestige

What are the reasons for it?

Comment author: DaFranker 21 August 2012 05:36:14PM *  3 points [-]

This, do-super-want. Perhaps a more specific version/implementation/tactic would be compulsory education alternatives. Of course, the signalling part remains a major problem.

One other possible element of the signalling problem is to counter a particular subset of common responses that seem particularly available: "What makes your special certification any different from all those bogus sham 'buy-a-high-school-degree-online' diploma mills?"

Establishing trustworthiness is also made more difficult by the trend that employers don't really seem willing to verify and learn about nonstandard accreditations. If someone has qualifications that they don't expect and don't immediately recognize as a good signal, it'll be dismissed without further investigation. Targeting employers seems like it would be a requirement of an optimal certification system.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 August 2012 10:18:43PM 3 points [-]

In the high-status parts of the software industry, getting Java/Microsoft/etc. certification is a slight negative on your job value -- i.e., one is expected to countersignal.

Why is that? That wouldn't have surprised me too much if it had been about about academia, or about the free/libre/open source software community, but software industry... why?

Comment author: bcoburn 20 August 2012 05:53:05AM 5 points [-]

Because it signals that you're the sort of person who feels a need to get certifications, or more precisely that you thought you actually needed the certification to get a job. (And because the actual certifications aren't taken to be particularly hard, such that completing one is strong evidence of actual skill)

Comment author: [deleted] 20 August 2012 08:50:09AM 2 points [-]

And because the actual certifications aren't taken to be particularly hard, such that completing one is strong evidence of actual skill

OK, I get it now. I don't list my ECDL (which I took in high school) in my CV because i think it's so basic that potential employers (who have any kind of clue) would think "huh? so what?", but I assumed that Java/Microsoft/etc. certifications were nontrivial to get.

Comment author: DaFranker 21 August 2012 05:30:02PM *  4 points [-]

There's that, and there's also (from personal experience) an element of superhero bias (or bias overcompensation? I forget which way this one goes), where basically someone who does not have a certification but can code something optimally is de-facto superior to someone who does have a certification and codes the same thing just as optimally.

Additionally, there may be some reciprocate signaling involved; if I look for certified programmers, people will see mere certification as sufficient to get the job, which is not what I want - I want people who have the actual ability. Thus, I should hire people with ability but no certification, which signals that the certification is "useless" or "not what we're looking for" relative to other criteria.

This seems to even out to a reflective equilibrium where official certification is a net negative.

Comment author: scottyah 19 August 2012 07:02:25AM 4 points [-]

I've been thinking of developing a way for homeowners to hire the local teenagers and children to do small jobs like lawn mowing, babysitting, dog walking and housesitting etc. A lot of people like to hire local kids, but don't know enough people in the neighborhood, and don't have time to search. It would be a way to strengthen community ties, and foster teen work ethic as well as give them an opportunity to get a start on financial planning and budgeting.

It would just be a way for them to get in touch, and help choose someone reliable. I still don't know how to avoid untrustworthy people preying on children, and I do not know how this would work with child labor laws. As far as I know though, teens have been hired for this kind of work for years without any problems.

Comment author: AltonSun 19 August 2012 05:51:47AM *  31 points [-]

A Backwards Kickstarter

A crowdfunding & crowdsourcing platform where you go to post your problems that you'd like to be solved, products that you'd like manufactured, programs or services that you'd like to be made, and how much you'd be willing to pay for it.

This takes LSM validation principles and reverses it - don't waste time finding out what the market wants - have them tell you, then

* focus on fulfilling it.*

The closest thing to it that I'm aware of would be Quora , except every upvote on a question (idea) represents $10. Everything is editable a la wikipedia. This would enable you to view trending ideas in realtime. You can give unlimited upvotes to ideas because it is deducted from your 'bank' of credits that would be linked to your PayPal or Credit Card.

Alternatively, you can follow ideas for free, and optionally receive notifications on updates or immediately actionable items that match your domain of expertise.

On the fulfillment/programming/manufacturing side, anticipated trajectories of certain categories could create clarity as to what students could best invest their time and efforts in.

If you are interested, message me and I can share more details, mockups, etc.

I'd love feedback, remembering that 'criticism is the cornerstone to progress', and 'if version 1 isn't embarrassing, you've released too late.'

Other ideas that probably wouldn't make a lot of money

  • Welcome to the internet page

  • Accountability Engine - many have an easier time helping other people than they do themselves, why not trade tasks at 5 min, 30 min, and 1 hr intervals? Alternatively, everyone in your group has to post a series of 3 screenshots or images of the progress that they've made towards two publicly declared goals. I want to make inaction inexcusable.

  • Your liaison in XYZ - want something shipped to or from a friend? Need someone to represent you in another country?

  • Intelligent alert system - Hey, you've just spent 10 minutes on Facebook - how about you work on what you should be working on instead?

  • AnswerMe - Questions? Ask them via text or email, and it will automatically be posted to Quora, ChaCha answers, and just for laughs - Yahoo Answers. At the end of the day or week, the answers are forwarded to your email or texted direct. If you're a premium user, it costs cents to post to Amazon's Mechanical Turk (and they have an API!) and only a couple dollars to post on Odesk to get hours worth of research. (I regularly hire people at $3.33/hr in India, since standard of living is so much lower.)

Odd ideas:

  • Relationship advice hotline - text or call a phone number, direct connect with someone that can help

  • LevelUpLife - Lend a GoPro camera necklace to someone, have them wear it to a social occasion or work environment situation, then advise them specifically on how to be funnier, happier, or better in some way that they choose. This can also be done with a personal recorder or iPhone in their pocket for more seamless suggestions.

Self-selecting from an audience that took the time to read this is likely worth connecting with, if at least online. If you happen to be located in the bay area, I spend most of my time in Berkeley, San Francisco, and Palo Alto, and am happy to meet up for tea or join you during an event with anyone who is even slightly curious.

Disclaimer: You may end up with photos of your face,, learning how to card manipulate, contact juggle, or flip a butterfly knife.

Comment author: michaelkeenan 21 August 2012 07:32:48PM 3 points [-]

Responding to the Backwards Kickstarter: there's a subreddit called SomebodyMakeThis where people post products they'd like manufactured, and programs or services they'd like to be made. There's no monetary aspect, though. That would be a good subreddit to advertise this service on.

Comment author: Davidmanheim 24 August 2012 04:08:07PM 2 points [-]

Quirky is probably a better example of a startup that does this. It has the problems Quora does, but is a credible attempt.

Comment author: Nisan 20 August 2012 06:49:33PM 5 points [-]

Cool! I'm wondering who will decide whether a project solves a given problem. Maybe automatically survey a sample of investors?

Comment author: AltonSun 22 August 2012 07:03:55AM 3 points [-]

Awesome question: I imagine after a threshold of investors approve of a given proposed solution, work is commenced at an agreed upon % rate upfront vs. delivered afterwards, on a per project basis.

Comment author: moocow1452 20 August 2012 12:48:36AM *  6 points [-]

YouZingIt and Fiverr have similar offerings, along with other invention contractors on the Google nets, LambertInvent.com offering a flat rate of $199 to look at your idea and tell you if they can do something with it. Get Satisfaction also has a similar idea for products and tech support, but I like the idea of posting bounties to problems, and actually getting things done by throwing money at it until it goes away.

Looking at this from the posting of concepts direction though, I'd be a smidge paranoid disclosing ideas to a third party where I pay them a buck to make one and they can sell the finished product for ten because they have the skills and resources to bring it into reality and I don't. I dunno if that's an unrealistic expectation or me being lazy and code illiterate, (too many words all over the place) but if who owns what is a barrier of entry, the idea of a marketplace for hire might go pear shaped if someone strikes it rich.

Comment author: AltonSun 21 August 2012 06:07:21PM 1 point [-]

posting bounties to problems, and actually getting things done by throwing money at it until it goes away.

Well said, potential tagline:

"Incremental bounties for instrumental solutions."

paranoid disclosing ideas to a third party where I pay them a buck to make one and they can sell the finished product for ten

The idea is to bring abundance to awesomely executed ideas. Right now, it seems like much of the silicon valley is more obsessed with the idea of making things happen than actually making them happen. Besides, it's the idea multiplied by the execution that creates value. And thankfully, startup ideas are not patent-able.

Early adopters will always have to pay a premium to pioneer new areas of innovation. With time, the goal would really be to lower the barriers to awesome ideas entering the market, both physical and startup-related.

The bottom line is that you could then get a product for ten dollars when the alternative would be you getting nothing and being eternally annoyed at whatever issue initially motivated you to post in the first place.

Comment author: windup 21 August 2012 05:59:12PM 3 points [-]

You'd be "a smidge paranoid" to publicly "disclose ideas" to a party you couldn't afford -- or couldn't find -- as a dev team, anyway? The goal of this ReverseKickstarter, in my eyes, is to get those ideas out of people before they die! The alternative to this marketplace is a) be a dev, b) pay a dev.

Those are both pretty high barriers to entry. They discourage a lot of people from contributing meaningfully or significantly to this revolution.

How can we lower the barriers to contribution? I think AltonSun has an answer.

Maybe I don't understand your ideas of "who owns what" , "marketplace for hire" or "pear shaped".

Comment author: AltonSun 21 August 2012 06:12:48PM 1 point [-]

Hey, this is exactly what I was looking to convey, but in less words and more concise ideas. Thanks.

Plus, this video is great: http://vimeo.com/25380454

Comment author: moocow1452 21 August 2012 06:11:39PM *  2 points [-]

For the sake of argument, lets say I'm a somewhat greedy bastard who would like some compensation for bringing my spark to your kindling, and I am afraid of this system because while I can only give away my idea once on the internet for it to be infinitely copied and modifiable, you can package it hundreds of times to hundreds of different people to make a mint. Common good can wait for me to produce it myself and be the flamebringer to the masses, because If I give it to you, you get the glory, financial security, and reputation that means you can live to develop another day. How do you sell this to me?

EDIT: So we don't ninja each other anymore, I'll just leave it at "this is going to be a hard sell if you want idea people to play along." But for all I know, that may be part of the plan to get more people intrested in pitching in and being responsible idea parents.

Comment author: AltonSun 21 August 2012 07:26:09PM 1 point [-]

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you're asking.

Though, it's not clear that it would be valuable to convince you either?

Comment author: moocow1452 21 August 2012 08:12:08PM 1 point [-]

I'm asking how you plan to market the Reverse Kickstarter to people who have an idea, want to see it come into reality, but do not want to have their brainchild run away from them and have it's own life /without them/. Maybe I'm looking at it from a more entitled direction than I should, but as far as ideas having little value without execution, the Great Patent Wars speaks otherwise.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 19 August 2012 07:26:56AM 6 points [-]

I like it!

A couple of people emailed me who I think might be interested - I want to send the introduction when I'm more awake, and I will be gone all day tomorrow, so ping me if you haven't gotten it from my by Monday night.

Comment author: AltonSun 21 August 2012 07:36:36PM *  1 point [-]

Awesome, well my ultimate goal is for people to love it!

Thanks for starting one of the most active and engaging threads in an area I can contribute to!

Comment author: asong408 18 August 2012 06:53:26AM *  4 points [-]

Reinvent the Refrigerator. Since its debut in the 1940s, it hasn't changed much in design. Put a bunch of food in a large cooled box and hope you remember to eat its contents before it rots. There has been some lame attempts by slapping a LCD panel on the front with an RFID scanner, but you still have to remember where you store the food. I think automation and inventory management via mobile device is key. There is a lively discussion on quora right now, but I'd like to also invite people to poke holes and/or add value to my idea.

Basically it's an automated parking garage that is shrunk down to the size of a fridge. You can learn more here I apologize in advance that I'm linking to FB, it's just were the idea currently lives.

The benefit of the company is providing a greener fridge that helps people not waste food, which is a big problem right now. Americans waste 34 million tons of food waste each year. The amount of green house gases, labor, and transportation costs to produce food just to throw away food is maddening.

Obviously the first fridge will cost the same as a luxury car, since you're basically cramming a robot into a fridge, but so was the first computer. I can see this fridge being the next big opportunity where everyone throws out the dumb fridge just like everyone did with their CRT for an LCD.

That being said, I welcome your comments and questions.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 August 2012 10:31:38AM 1 point [-]

There has been some lame attempts by slapping a LCD panel on the front with an RFID scanner, but you still have to remember where you store the food.

A good user interface could solve this, even without the RFID scanner. The touchscreen would display items in refrigerator, sorted by shelves.

Adding a new food: click "new food" icon, select the food from the list, click on the shelf. (You are supposed to do this after you have put the food inside.) Now the panel displays the food on the correct shelf.

Comment author: thetimpotter 19 August 2012 02:13:44PM 5 points [-]

What if facial recognition technology became food recognition technology? More simple than chipping all food items.

Comment author: Persol 19 August 2012 03:08:49PM 3 points [-]

I was thinking of this same sort of thing for a diet site. Rather than count calories, just photograph your plate with your hand next to it, and have the computer calculate for you.

The main issues I see with doing this in a fridge would be viewing angles and telling the difference between an old carton of OJ and a new carton of OJ.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 August 2012 03:37:38PM 1 point [-]

I can't see how a new fridge is a solution to that problem. If every time you go to the supermarket you buy more food than you'll be able to eat before the next time you go there, eventually you'll have to throw away some food, unless it lasts eternally. The standard solution to that is not going to the supermarket when you're hungry, and it works for me -- actually, if I go to the supermarket when I'm stuffed, it works too much.

but you still have to remember where you store the food

I don't remember ever having trouble locating stuff in a fridge.

Comment author: thetimpotter 18 August 2012 03:30:50PM 4 points [-]

How about repopularizing chest freezers? Inherently much more energy efficient, and freezing can help save food waste.

Comment author: lsparrish 18 August 2012 05:03:09PM 2 points [-]

Another idea for encouraging more energy-efficient freezing would be a garage-sized (or bigger) freezer designed for community use. The bigger the better from an energy efficiency standpoint because that means less surface area per unit volume. I'm thinking fully automated storage and retrieval would make this work better as a community good (compared to a walk-in freezer), since there would be no need to employ a person to retrieve and keep track of things manually. You could basically just walk up to it, swipe your card, and tell it which items you want to retrieve, at which point they are deposited on a shelf for you to grab.

Comment author: Alicorn 18 August 2012 05:06:02PM 4 points [-]

Like ice cream vending machines only giant and with peas and raspberries in. Neat!

Comment author: lsparrish 18 August 2012 05:43:36PM 2 points [-]

It would be sort of like a vending machine, but stocked by the user and with basically whatever you want. However, suppliers probably wouldn't charge too much to do deliveries, especially if there is high volume. Also, if you have an entire neighborhood eating out of the same freezer, there could be significant discounts from making group orders.

Comment author: thetimpotter 19 August 2012 02:09:42PM 2 points [-]

Community freezer reminds me of a concept I like. Grocery stores hold effectively no food in case of emergency. With each sale, a percentage fee would pay for similar foods to be stored for you at an extremely secure facility. What if amazon orders would double spend a couple items per order and hold them for you?

Comment author: lsparrish 18 August 2012 04:42:28PM 3 points [-]

The trouble with chest freezers is they are a pain to get things from the bottom of. What I've seen happen is stuff remaining at the bottom of the freezer for years on end, eventually becoming freezer-burnt. But if you can automate the stacking and unstacking of things, this could be a good idea. You wouldn't even need the entire top to be openable (or at least, you wouldn't typically open the entire top), there could just be a smaller port for pulling things out of.

Comment author: Marcello 18 August 2012 04:31:05AM 5 points [-]

Short version: Make an Eckman-style micro-expression reader in a wearable computer.

Fleshed out version: You have a wearable computer (perhaps something like Google glass) which sends video from its camera (or perhaps two cameras if one camera is not enough) over to a high-powered CPU which processes the images, locates the faces, and then identifies micro expressions by matching and comparing the current image (or 3D model) to previous frames to infer which bits of the face have moved in which directions. If a strong enough micro-expression happens, the user is informed by a tone or other notification. Alternatively, one could go the more pedagogical route by showing then a still frame of the person doing the micro-expression some milliseconds prior with the relevant bits of the face highlighted.

Feasibility: We already can make computers are good at finding faces in images and creating 3D models from multiple camera perspectives. I'm pretty sure small cameras are good enough by now. We need the beefy CPU and/or GPU as a separate device for now because it's going to be a while before wearables are good enough to do this kind of heavy-duty processing on their own, but wifi is good enough to transmit very high resolution video. The foggiest bit in my model would be whether current image processing techniques are up to the challenge. Would anyone with expertise in machine vision care to comment on this?

Possible positive consequences: Group collaboration easily succumbs to politics and scheming unless a certain (large) level of trust and empathy has been established. (For example, I've seen plenty of hacker news comments confirm that having a strong friendship with one's startup cofounder is important.) A technology such as this would allow for much more rapid (and justified) trust-building between potential collaborators. This might also allow for the creation of larger groups of smart people who all trust each other. (Which would be invaluable for any project which produces information which shouldn't be leaked because it would allow such projects to be larger.) Relatedly, this might also allow one to train really excellent therapist-empaths.

Possible negative consequence: Police states where the police are now better at reading people's minds.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 August 2012 06:32:51PM *  1 point [-]

I did an internship with these guys a couple years ago, and one of the teams was already working on the problem. Ekman's ideas were specifically brought up as a basic idea of what they were doing, but expanded beyond just microexpressions and the like. Some other things they were looking at included pore-dilation, and thermal imaging.

It wasn't my team, so I don't remember too many details, but I remember a problem being that they had to have the subjects immobile in one place, and surrounded by an array of very expensive cameras and sensors.

If you could design a system where you could set up enough sensors to look at everyone in a room, despite the fact that they were moving around, etc, and be able to pick out warning signs for violence (one of their most desired use cases), you'd be in business.

They were sponsored by DARPA or AFRL, but the work was public, so might be able to find some info by browsing around. Also, if they were doing it, I would guess that other colleges were too.

Comment author: katydee 21 August 2012 05:13:18AM 1 point [-]

I'm skeptical of this because of my general suspicion of the validity of Paul Ekman's research program, especially since many of the potential applications of this technology seem related to the shakiest area of the research program-- lie detection.

Further, even if you assume Ekman's research is entirely valid, I'm not sure that video analysis technology can be reliable or effective enough to be useful at the present stage, especially when we're talking about stimuli that last for such a short period-- typically 40-100 ms. Machine vision isn't my forte either, so I'm not positive, but you would have to be really accurate for something like this to be fully useful, and quite fast as well if you want real-time conversational feedback. It's also important to consider that having a program like this with a substantial error rate would likely be worse than not having a program at all.

I do think that-- if possible-- this would be a great idea (indeed, it would represent one of the "killer apps" for Google Glass and similar wearable computing projects if it were effective), but I think both the research behind the idea and the ability to actually implement this in an effective fashion are very shaky at this stage.

Comment author: AltonSun 18 August 2012 06:41:30PM 5 points [-]

Version 0.1 can be for Skype conversations. Imagine the heightened 'super power' ability to discreetly (or not so discreetly) pick up on this during your personal and business Skype chats.

I wear a GoPro camera around my neck for a life-logging project, and have tried it with a wifi (EyeFi) card. If you want live video or pics, the battery lasts around 1 hr for 1picture per 5 seconds. If you want video at 30fps at 960p, the interchangeable batteries last about 1.5 hours and records about 5.5 hrs on a 32gb card (max size supported)

The files are huge, cumbersome, and do little for me.

I have been entertaining the idea of a version that recognizes your mood throughout the day with your webcam, and plots it over time based on what type of tasks you were performing. Over time, your laptop could suggest transitioning from certain tasks to others based on your expressions to optimize for personalized productivity and mood.

Affectiva's Affdex is a company to look to for this, and has a great demo that plots your expressions over time while watching commercials: http://www.affectiva.com/affdex/#pane_overview

Another idea is to make lending out laptops free if the user agrees to having essentially no privacy - you'd sell the information and user expressions as they experience certain sites back to the companies that would pay for this program and reap a healthy profit along the way! (A part of which you'd totally send to me.)

This could be a sustainable way to get more internet enabled laptops into more hands and push people to become more contributing, creating members of society rather than the majority passive consumers that we experience today.

Version .1 of this laptop program could be lending out old/donated/extra laptops under the condition that the lendees who use the laptops create 1 thing a day of notable worth to themselves (or one project per every x hours). So everyone is held together by incrementally improving themselves and creating projects of value that are auto uploaded from a certain folder into a community of people who give each other feedback, etc.

Look forward to talking about this next time I see you in person Marcello. Also typing about this here for anyone else that happens to be reading, feel free to find me on Facebook.com/AltonSun to further the conversation.

Comment author: Kevin 18 August 2012 02:37:31AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: KrisC 17 August 2012 07:11:07PM *  3 points [-]

I am developing a decision making app.

The user is prompted with the phrase "I want."

The user's request is matched against a database of peer-generated responses. But the search does not end there. The search results are a front end to the content which is also peer-generated. The content payload could potentially be any function of the smartphone, though it is usually screen output such a set of instructions or a link to a website. Request parsing and wild-carding is integral to reduce the number of database entries.

Should the user not be satisfied with the results presented, then the request will be broadcast through the network to peers with a favorable history. In the first pass, peer's database will be searched. If this is not sufficient the request will appear as an unanswered question to be answered by other users if they choose to respond. I shouldn't need to tell the LW audience that Bayes' Rule is used to evaluate the responses by peer. An optional milieu field helps to narrow down areas of expertise for individual contributors.

The program is integrated with phone's calendar function, allowing delayed and repeating execution of requests.

The application incorporates a screensaver which builds upon the individualized database arrangement to deliver peer-created scenes to a fixed storyline, which showcases emerging technologies. These stories display links for users to access speculative technologies, then the users are directed to open source projects (if they follow my links).

On top of all this, add the usual slew of social media options: upvoting, banning, groups, multiple user profiles, anonymous searches, recruiting incentives, et cetera.

My intention is to leave the code open source and offer free and paid versions of the app. The consumer version I am calling 'Hope' and the developer's edition I am calling 'Plan A.' Working on my own I hope to get this project to a working demo in December of this year. Currently the code is hosted at BitBucket. I plan on moving over to GoogleCode when I iron out some connectivity issues.

As a closing note, let me mention that this project was originally inspired by the question: "Why aren't more people putting 3D printers to practical use?"

Comment author: Epiphany 20 August 2012 02:16:03AM 4 points [-]

Critique of presentation:

I am developing a decision making app. The user is prompted with the phrase "I want."

This will be a frequent assumption: Decision-making app? On a phone? This can't happen.

The user's request is matched against a database of peer-generated responses. But the search does not end there. The search results are a front end to the content which is also peer-generated. The content payload could potentially be any function of the smartphone, though it is usually screen output such a set of instructions or a link to a website. Request parsing and wild-carding is integral to reduce the number of database entries.

I think what you're saying is "Once the user types what they want, the phone does it like a command. It can do almost any command this way." Really, what needs to be in place of this paragraph is an example. The example should either support the decision-making claim, or the decision making claim needs to be reworded.

Should the user not be satisfied with the results presented, then the request will be broadcast through the network to peers with a favorable history. In the first pass, peer's database will be searched. If this is not sufficient the request will appear as an unanswered question to be answered by other users if they choose to respond. I shouldn't need to tell the LW audience that Bayes' Rule is used to evaluate the responses by peer. An optional milieu field helps to narrow down areas of expertise for individual contributors.

Now I'm confused about what kind of question the user will input. Are they asking the phone to perform a command, answer a question, or make a decision? I have no idea at this point.

The program is integrated with phone's calendar function, allowing delayed and repeating execution of requests.

Okay, that sounds useful all by itself.

The application incorporates a screensaver which builds upon the individualized database arrangement to deliver peer-created scenes to a fixed storyline, which showcases emerging technologies. These stories display links for users to access speculative technologies, then the users are directed to open source projects (if they follow my links).

Ooh shiny! But... why is it included? I am questioning "what is the concept for this project"? Is there an over-arching concept that explains why all of this is under the same umbrella? Maybe these should be separate apps.

My intention is to leave the code open source and offer free and paid versions of the app. The consumer version I am calling 'Hope' and the developer's edition I am calling 'Plan A.' Working on my own I hope to get this project to a working demo in December of this year. Currently the code is hosted at BitBucket. I plan on moving over to GoogleCode when I iron out some connectivity issues.

How will the commercial version support itself? What is being paid for that's not available in the free version? If you don't answer questions about money immediately, people lose interest very fast.

I do not see a reason for the name "hope" or "plan a". I will forget both of these names, due to not making any connections for them. If people can't remember the name of something, it can really slow you down in marketing. I suggest that instead of explaining the name for the product, that you figure out a way to convey your umbrella concept so that people can remember what's included in this app, and then name it something related, so that they remember the name.

As a closing note, let me mention that this project was originally inspired by the question: "Why aren't more people putting 3D printers to practical use?"

I don't know why this is relevant. Is there something about this method of conception that makes your plan special? Point it out, or else leave that note out to respect the reader's limited time and lack of need to know this info.

We may have to go through this a few times to get out all the knots, then try presenting to a few people in your target audience as a test. If test fails, rinse and repeat.

My communication abilities are not good because I am able to magically present things well on the first try, but because I'm capable of figuring out how to present things after being persistent.

Don't know if I'll stick with this one - I'll have to see how it helps the world in order to invest significant time into it. You didn't include that in your post. That would be a good thing to include when you make your second version of this.

Comment author: KrisC 20 August 2012 10:55:04PM *  1 point [-]

Thanks for the review Epiphany. This is the kind of feedback I have a hard time finding.

The general message I received from your post is that I undersold the project. I did seek to keep my expectations understated. This audience does not seem to like overstated expectations.

There have been times when I have explained the project and felt that the person I was speaking to encountered an ah ha! moment, an epiphany. This is the kind of feedback that makes me feel good, but it is usually not very constructive.

Let me address your points.

This will be a frequent assumption: Decision-making app? On a phone? This can't happen.

Not much I can say to someone who makes up there mind on the first sentence. If the description were restructured this objection could be put off, but how would that help?

It is have been very difficult to categorize this app. If decision-making app is not the right phrase, what is? Wish fulfillment app seems even more preposterous. Search engine is misleading, as the search is only a step towards meeting a desire. Some people have mistaken it for a shopping app, which is only partly correct.

I think what you're saying is "Once the user types what they want, the phone does it like a command. It can do almost any command this way." Really, what needs to be in place of this paragraph is an example. The example should either support the decision-making claim, or the decision making claim needs to be reworded.

Once the user types - or says - what they want, the phone lists a set of search results. Upon selecting one, a screen is displayed, perhaps but not necessarily indicating what function of the phone will be activated. The most common action is the display of a link in a browser. It could however dial phone number, show a movie, ask the user to respond to a question, send a text message, or even send a message to a piece of electronics.

So let's say you say you want an apple. One result may post a link to a price aggregator which tracks local supermarkets and show you where apples are on sale. Another result might suggest that you grow an apple tree. A third result could tell you that recent research suggests that people who want apples actually need more exercise and suggests you do jumping jacks. A final result might be a picture of a lolcat with an apple.

From your history, the program knows that you are more likely to accept results from the contributor who lists an apple as a fruit available from a supermarket price aggregator. That result will go on top. The contributor who posted the erroneous research you had already banned, so that result is handicapped in the rankings. You may end up clicking on the funny picture and give it an approval, depending on your mood, and thus end the search. In the future, you will not only receive more results from that source higher in the rankings, but also your app will spread that result preferentially to peers.

The application incorporates a screensaver... which showcases emerging technologies

[W]hy is it included?

What may not be evident is that the purpose of the app is not to get people more stuff. The purpose of the app is to refine the procedures that users follow to get things that they ask for. The decision of what the "best" method is highly personal, and so the ranking is personal and informed by the opinions of like-minded peers.

So what does this have to do with the screensaver? The screensaver is the means to put into the users' minds and hands the things that I want to have available: space migration, intelligence increase, and life extension. By placing these things into an application which improves the methods of acquiring them through open source methods, they will hopefully be developed faster. This is a concrete boon to humanity.

It is my intent to develop the content in another application. However, to make use of the power of crowd-sourcing the content needs to be linked to the app.

How will the commercial version support itself? There are no costs to pay that I haven't already paid. Google provides the hosting. Users provide the phones and the content. I and future open source developers develop the product.

What is being paid for that's not available in the free version?

The slightest of bells and whistles. Background colors and images. The paid version is a bit of a joke. The user could just download the free version and ask the app how to get the premium features.

The paid developer version is, on the other hand, a sincere fundraising attempt.

If you don't answer questions about money immediately, people lose interest very fast.

Still don't think 'people' are getting it. The primary value is not derived from being the owner of the distribution of the software. The value is realized by the person using the app. It provides a forum for the competitive evaluation of methods of production and acquisition for the benefit of the users.

A secondary type of value is extracted by contributors. They get to influence users directly. Unlike a mere Wikipedia editor who provides background information, these contributors tell people what to buy and how to live their lives.

This reputation-based value is a potential path to monetization. By providing the app, we also have the ability to provide the seed database. I myself do not drink Pepsi. If I clone my own database and provide it as the seed, Pepsi will not be included. With the right inducement I can include PepsiCo as the source of Pepsi. Or even provide a link to the (hypothetical?) Pepsi distributor locator app.

I do not see a reason for the name "hope" or "plan a."

I 'hope' that I can find a way to 'plan a' way to get what I want. Please give me a better suggestion.

3D printers

Is there something about this method of conception that makes your plan special?

3D printer operators need models which are easy to provide via a database. 3D models can do double duty as elements used to create animated scenes such as used in the screensaver.

Closer to the core, the app is about individuals meeting their needs better. Not only can 3D printers provide completely customized items specific to the user, they can also be used to build other tools. With a 3D printer and the right set of instructions, the user will be able to provide for many of their own needs. While the scope of 3D printers' capabilities are currently somewhat limited, there is little doubt that their abilities will increase to a point where they are profitable for many more people to own.

I'll have to see how it helps the world in order to invest significant time into it. You didn't include that in your post.

The app helps the world with the same goal as SI's rationality outreach program, just using different means. We all want people to make better decisions. It would be nice if everyone learned better critical thinking skills. I just want to automate those skills in an app.

Point it out, or else leave that note out to respect the reader's limited time and lack of need to know this info.

You have a point about requiring the readers to keep thinking to get the whole message. But Socrates had a contrary opinion when it came to learning. Learning takes place in your head, not your ears. I am trying to recruit developers -- people who need to keep thinking about this in order to be useful at this time.

So in summary, I have heard it said that in order to create a successful social app you should take something you learned in EvoPsych and automate it. I am attempting to mimic the two methods of decision making. Either imitate a successful peer or do the research yourself. In this context, use the app and, when you have a better idea than what is listed, contribute content.

Comment author: Epiphany 21 August 2012 01:22:32AM 1 point [-]

The solution to disbelief is to make a verifiable claim. You can get clobbered so hard for making a verifiable claim that is wrong that it seems bold and people will hear you out then. Also, they can relax as soon as they have consciously noted to themselves that there is some way to test what you said - they're no longer paranoid that you can fool them when they have such an easy way to prove you wrong.

And sometimes it's best to let people see for themselves, be impressed, and categorize something by themselves. So, instead of "It makes decisions." I would give an example that is immediately verifiable as soon as you use the program. I would say "Type in X and it will say Y" - give a few more impressive examples to give the gist of the way that this thing "reasons" or whatever it does.

Hmmm... this is almost like a phone operating system, a different interface that's essentially language-based rather than visual-spatial. That could be really handy, especially if you're having a terrible time finding your buttons. Heck, I'd love to have that on my computer. And it does speech recognition? That's awesome.

Okay, I now understand why some people will think its awesome. (:

"From your history, the program knows that you are more likely to accept results from the contributor who lists an apple as a fruit available from a supermarket price aggregator. That result will go on top. "

Oh wow. I see this now. The implications for targeted advertising are all over that. I wonder what your stance is on targeted advertising? If you take a stance of "no" on that early on, I'd advertise that and put your decision in a prominent place - there's a growing movement of people who are starting to understand that they're being tracked and they don't like it. You'll get more respect and attention from them if you refuse to use it. Might be a way to stand out from competitors at some point, either now or in the future.

Those three paragraphs (with the search, the apple, and the way it selects results) were a really good start at explaining.

I feel like the screen saver fits in now, which is because my mind has decided this is kind of like an operating system. Or an operating system upgrade. Or a totally new paradigm about how to use your phone. That's enough of an umbrella to make a screensaver make sense.

Ok, so to confirm: the screensaver is a way to promote ideas? You want the public to know about technologies that you want to see happen so that they happen faster?

"It is my intent to develop the content in another application. However, to make use of the power of crowd-sourcing the content needs to be linked to the app."

That feels out of context.

So do you intend to make money off of the app or not? If not, definitely mention that it's non-profit. If this particular method (selling background colors) has been proven profitable, then cite an example and the amount of profit. Either making the claim if being non-profit or making a claim to know how to profit is really important. That's a lot of people's first question and a lot of people won't take you seriously if you don't have a realistic answer.

"This reputation-based value is a potential path to monetization."

Do you have plans in place for spammers? If not, they will ruin your app. Think I'm kidding? Back in 1998 you could try and find a pair of shoes on line, or some glasses, or other mundane household items. It didn't matter what you typed in because every result would be porn.

That's what will happen to your app if you have no security against it.

Wow 3-D printers. You have quite a vision for cell phones.

Okay, I'm going to suggest another rewrite: If I was you, I would start with the three paragraphs I mentioned before (with the search, the apple, and the way it selects results), elaborate / add information, and also, let the reader know how many users your app has so far. If it's growing quickly, let us know how long it takes to double?

Comment author: KrisC 21 August 2012 06:29:02PM *  1 point [-]

Before I get to the rewrite, let me an answer some questions. The pitch is not the place to answer all questions, but instead just enough to recruit users

Form Factor There are a few misconceptions that I have allowed to creep in in order to simplify my description. While I am currently writing the app to be run on a smartphone, this is only the current design iteration. It started as a website, but websites can't properly store data locally. This took up several redesigns until I moved onto a standalone Java app. Then the rise of smartphones happened. Smartphones have many features to recommend them for this application. They are ubiquitous, feature a modular code design, and specialize in data transfer. And they are programmed in Java, so minimal learning curve.

The point of the backstory is that smartphones are a single form factor. A more visually appealing form factor is, what I refer to as, the 'magic mirror.' The magic mirror is a Raspberry Pi running Android and connected to a wall mounted flat screen TV. This TV is not a dedicated device, but a ~$35 component which runs the app on a single input (HDMI) to the TV. The premium version of the app makes configuration very easy.

Another form factor is far more utilitarian. A headless version, run on a Raspberry Pi, executes pre-programmed queues of commands without user interaction.

Note to makers: The reliance on the Raspberry Pi is not absolute. I was thinking Arduino before. The program is only in Java and Android because I decided to learn Java to execute the project. Rapberry Pi is the cheapest computer that runs Android that I know of.

Money at the App Store Honestly, money is a secondary concern. This project is a tool.

Even if no one else ever uses the app, I will draw value from it (though perhaps not enough to offset the time invested already, but that's Sunk Cost and written off).

Even if someone steals the idea, the open source version will be more efficient because it does not need to incorporate overhead to support financial motives. I have sufficient code and description posted to protect my own right to develop and publish. This development trail goes back several years across multiple sites.

So let's look at possible sources of revenue anyway.

The app store is a possible source of income. If there is a free version of an app and a pay version, some people will pay for the app. I wouldn't, but some people will. As I said above, the only thing I want to give those people is a little ease of customization.

Another way the app store can be used to generate income is through soliciting donations. When you ask for people's time and then ask for people's money, you get more of people's money then a direct request for donations. Using the hierarchy of gamification rewards (Status, Access, Power, Stuff), the first reward we give is status.

Another reinforcement mechanism that I am trying to call into play amounts to triggering the Sunk Cost Fallacy in users who decide to become contributors - financial or content. This is the lesser of the two purposes for splitting the app into two implementations. Users who go to the trouble of downloading an new app are going to feel the need to make use of its features. The relevant feature is the ability to add content.

The user is directed to download a new app ('Plan A') after they have created new content on their own (as opposed to when solicited from a peer). At this moment the user is being asked to take an extra step, possibly have to delete things from their phone, and to download a new copy of the app. This is because they have said they know how to do something better than someone else. This is when we ask them to upgrade to contribute more, and this is where we ask them for money. Maximum is $20 on Android market per app sale.

The new version of the app simply displays a full set of options for creating new content. These settings can be confusing for lay users which is the major reason they are kept apart. The same functionality should be accessible from the search bar in any version of the app.

Android apps make very little money compared to iPhone apps. Porting to iPhone should be an early priority.

Money and advertisers The model here is the phonebook. Businesses pay to get listed. We administer the starting directory that every app loads with. This is baked in at the code level in a mechanism used to simplify comparing databases. Under most conditions users will not be deleting these initial tables from their own devices. This does not guarantee top ranking, only the inclusion of the correct information in the results. If you don't pay, you aren't guaranteed even that.

Covert Advertising This is not meant to be a capitalist endeavor. It is meant to compete in a capitalist marketplace. The project is meant to drive users to other open source projects and solutions.

In terms of utility modeling: Every open source advance is available to me, so my fitness is increased by the sum of all open source knowledge. So is everyone else's. Preferential access to open source solutions exist. Fitness is a relative measure in a closed system.

I want "to be reminded to take my pills twice a day" Sample Responses: set alarm "Take my pills" every twelve hours, set alarm "Take my pills twice a day" time to be specified, text messages on timers.

User chooses to look for additional alternatives. Request sent to peers in network. User will not be satisfied without in home care. An opportunity. User could have been satisfied with talking to her daughter on the phone as she was actually looking for companionship.

I want "I'm hungry" Sample Responses: google maps closest restaurant, closest supermarket, local peer with excess food.

User closes search screen without selecting anything because the google map preview was sufficient. Ratings remain unchanged.

I want "to learn German" Sample Respones: google search with a website that teaches German, peer offering language lessons in exchange for dinner, Rosetta Stone website.

User chooses the peer tutoring based on the photo in the response.

Spammers The sharing algorithm is meant to allow spammers in, but force them to have a lower reputation. They play by the rules. I want something. They offer something. Their offer is of low value so they don't get up-voted.

My fear is account hijacking.

Current users I don't have users because I don't have a demo yet. I have abandoned my last several builds due to difficulties of peer to peer networking. What I have are small groups of reviewers who I consult for advice. Even that runs into problems. I usually only get one round of feedback from each person before they agree. And then stop providing meaningful feedback.

What I need are developers. I have taught myself various computer languages for the purpose of putting this program together. Experienced developers would hopefully already know how to implement the missing components. To reach developers I need a demo. So the only thing I can see to do is to continue work on the demo and to build up supporters and collateral skills and assets in the meantime.

Comment author: alexflint 17 August 2012 03:34:28AM *  2 points [-]

I'm working for a mid-size startup and have been gathering insight into successful startups for a couple of years. Here is what I think is important.

Create value. Make sure your idea actually creates value in the world. Lots of value. It should conceivably be useful to many of people, and it should conceivably be of significant value to them. Value means your product would be important enough that, if forced to, they would give up other things in exchange for it.

Don't focus on monetization. Startups are subject to all sorts of counter-intuitive economics; it's unrealistic to plan exactly how you will make money. Make sure you're creating value, and check that there's nothing that would prevent you from ever collecting any of that value. Then go back to creating value.

Iteration beats brilliance. The speed at which you iterate is more important that the brilliance of the initial idea. Trying out a product in the real market is an experiment: the feedback your receive entangles your startup with other players in the market. Each experiment steers you towards a local optimum. To win you need (1) to start in the general vicinity of a good local optima and (2) rapid convergence to that optima.

The quality of the team is key. Early stage investors invest largely in the perceived quality of a team, and so should you invest your time alongside great people. An early stage startup should never hire consultants (wrong incentives), should never live in different cities (bad communication). Entering into a startup is like a marriage: it's very hard to get out.

Choose investors cautiously. You're also "married" to your investors on the day you sign a term sheet. Pick ones that you trust, that share your goals, and that can help you in ways other than by providing capital.

Comment author: ShannonFriedman 16 August 2012 09:53:58PM *  6 points [-]

If you would like to help make these ideas happen, I highly recommend asking questions to the people who presented them.

Most ideas will get glossed over because they are not specific enough.

The easiest way to help people get specific enough that I know of is to ask yourself the question "What could this person say that would catch my attention and cause me to want to work with or invest in them if I were in their target demographic?"

If you use that for your compass of what questions to ask them to be more specific about, and they answer well, then much better odds of a match happening, if someone in their target demographic passes through. And if they end up getting more clarity through your questions and realizing that the idea isn't actually something they want to pursue, then that's not a bad outcome either - they can stop worrying about it and move onto something better suited to them.

In addition to helping them get clear about things you think you would want as an investor, also questions that clarify what they would be looking for in general, and especially as a next step, for the project would help. Have they answered the question "What/who does this project need?" very concretely and specifically?

If you ask the right questions, you just might be able to make the difference between someone getting their project funded or not. We can make bets about specifics of this assertion with David's market ;)

Also worth noting that even though I phrased the question about "what cause me to want to work with or invest in them" in the positive, often what needs to be addressed are peoples concerns to show that the project is actually realistic - so asking the hard questions, that could prove that the idea is not good if the person can't answer well, is actually quite important. Its much better to risk genuinely disqualifying a project than to not give it a chance to be noticed.

Comment author: spoutdoors 16 August 2012 09:43:11PM *  13 points [-]

Hi folks - long-time reader, first-time poster here. I'd like to share my new startup, formed over the past few months. In short, we use human computation to create employment opportunities in the developing world while enabling new types of data analysis for solving complex problems.

Some background and justification: extreme poverty is bad. I won't say too much to justify this point, other than that human suffering and the lost potential for individuals to do great things are two of the big things that make it bad. And just to be clear, by "extreme poverty" I am referring to the "living on $1 per day" kind (though that's a not a very good definition, it's at least in the ballpark). One way to combat extreme poverty is by creating employment opportunities so that people can help themselves, rather than giving them free shoes, or corn, or wells, all of which are suboptimal for meeting their varied pressing needs. So our approach is to hire them to do human computation work.

Human computation is when people do things that are easy for people but hard for computers. A good example is image processing/recognition (this is why reCAPTCHA works). By combining the things people do well with the things computers (i.e. software we currently able to write) do well, we can enable new kinds of data analysis. For example, we can mine figures from the medical literature for depictions of biochemical pathways, recreate many of them together (molecules = nodes, interactions = edges), and create a more complete picture of our biology.

So that's our approach: find an interesting, complex problem (so far they have been in the academic research world), collaborate with the domain experts to design human computation processes to enable the necessary data analysis and synthesis, and using our web platform, pay people in developing countries to do the work. Interesting problems get solved, we get paid, and people in Kenya get paid. Win, win, win.

Interested? We are looking for:

  • People with problems to solve using human computation. We are especially looking for domain experts here. Not sure if your problem is amenable to human computation? Let's talk.

  • Programmers. We've got a platform now but are continually improving it. Python/django. There's also a fair amount of cobbling together datasets for input and output that presents ever-changing challenges in many different languages.

  • Marketing/sales. Our concept is a hard thing to explain to people. People don't seem to be used to thinking about solving problems in this manner, so it's difficult to get people to think, "Oh yes! I have problem X and this will help me solve it!". We need to figure out some way to communicate this better in order to expand the problems to work on and increase revenue.

  • Funding. We need to pay programmers, marketing people, and us.

  • Other! Think this is a cool idea but don't fit into one of the above areas? Let's talk!

Comment author: woodside 22 August 2012 11:29:39AM 3 points [-]

Do you have any more examples of problems that have been solved or are trying to be solved using this approach?

This idea sounds very interesting and potentially a good business, but that rests completely on there being a large set of problems that would be cheaper to solve this way than by another method.

Comment author: spoutdoors 22 August 2012 05:50:12PM *  1 point [-]

Yes, the business case rests strongly on having a big enough market. We think (strong gut feel, but without much data to back it up yet) that there is a very large potential market. It's kind of a "latent" market - it's a way to solve problems that people are not thinking about yet. I think of it like this: before computers became widespread, did people think about using computational tools to solve problems? No, not really. Likewise, I think, for "human computation". The capacity of the human perceptual systems to process input, and to make subtle judgments, is really tremendous, but that has not been harnessed as a resource for problem solving until recently.

There's definitely a market for what I would call "plain vanilla" human computation tasks: text and audio transcription, business listing verification, etc (high volume but cognitively boring stuff). The existence and revenue-generation by MTurk and Crowd Flower, for example, is strong evidence of this. We also think there will be a market for more interesting problem-solving applications in science and engineering research.

Another example: Air Quality Researcher Guy wants to model exposure to indoor and outdoor air pollution across regions in the country; people spend lots of time in their houses, so that constitutes a lot of their exposure (integrating over time); open windows dramatically change the indoor/outdoor air mix. Therefore if we know something about window-opening frequency (and regional demographics, weather, etc) we can correlate that to incidence of respiratory illnesses, for example. Soooo...we sample images from Google Streetview and have people tell us if windows are open! (simplified, ongoing project).

We also think that the field of metagenomics, and the other new "-omics" fields in biology may have some interesting applications. They generate data much faster than they can analyze it, and the tools for making comparisons between this-thing-that-we-don't-know-what-it-is and that-other-new-thing-that-looks-kinda-like-the-old-thing-sorta-maybe are incomplete and don't do a great job (plus the inherent inexact comparative nature of biology) makes us think human computation could contribute to solutions.

Another possible application: a single-stream recycling sorting center using real-time (or near enough to real-time) human computation for sorting objects according to a binary tree corresponding to a binary conveyor system.

Some other things people have already done using human computation: ask humans to generate social scripts to help "train" people with autism for various social interactions; have people answer questions about pictures taken with a smartphone app for blind people ("Is this beverage can a Coke or a beer?"); tag photos from a film company's archive and use an algorithm to link entities and "connect the dots" to realize that the photos are the lost rolls of film from the set of "American Graffiti"

So there's reason to think there are lots of interesting, as-yet-undiscovered applications for this! So again...if this lights any lightbulbs, or you have suggestions for applications, please let me know!

Comment author: OphilaDros 18 August 2012 02:41:42AM 3 points [-]

One way to combat extreme poverty is by creating employment opportunities so that people can help themselves, rather than giving them free shoes, or corn, or wells, all of which are suboptimal for meeting their varied pressing needs. So our approach is to hire them to do human computation work.

How are you planning to reach out to the poorest of the poor in developing countries? Will you be tying up with some agencies back there? Because you will not be able to find them over the internet.

You will also need strong mechanisms in place for quality control of the process so that the output is usable. I'm guessing a lot of the problems you will face will be similar to other crowdsourcing ventures like Mechanical Turk.

Comment author: RomanDavis 19 August 2012 08:29:03AM 5 points [-]

Yeah, the whole time I was thinking, "Hasn't the guy heard of Mechanical Turk?'

I guess he could be using MTurk as a platform to do this on, although I don't know haw much Amazon eats of your profit.

Comment author: spoutdoors 22 August 2012 04:52:41PM 6 points [-]

Yes, Mechanical Turk is another platform that enables human computation work. We looked a lot at that in our early research. It does not, however, implement any internal quality control mechanisms, and it also only allows payment in US dollars, Indian rupees, or via Amazon gift card. The interface is also clunky and difficult for people with limited computer/internet experience to understand (too many windows within windows, basically).

So there are a number of reasons to sidestep Mechanical Turk.

Comment author: spoutdoors 22 August 2012 04:59:56PM 4 points [-]

Great points. I have personal connections in some poor rural areas of Kenya already (and already in that place, people are always asking, "How can I join?", both of me and of the current workers). My colleagues also have connections in a number of other developing countries where we could plant "seeds". How to grow the "crowd" from those seeds is an interesting problem, but not insurmountable, what with ever-increasing mobile phone/3G penetration and a mobile interface to our platform (lots of people in Kenya, for example, have a low end mobile phone or internet-capable "feature phone" while still living in mud huts), a franchise model using netbooks and small solar stations, etc.

As for quality control, you're absolutely right. There are a lot of ways to approach that (none of which Mturk implements). There's some well-established precedent for methods that work, so we feel confident we can generate high quality outputs.

Comment author: OphilaDros 23 August 2012 04:04:52PM 1 point [-]

Upvoted. If you want a(n additional) "seed" in India, pls let me know. :)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 August 2012 09:11:57AM 2 points [-]

How are you planning to reach out to the poorest of the poor in developing countries?

Could humans be also used for doing this? Something like: "If you find other people to join this system, you will get 10% of their reward."

Surely, this has a lot of negative connotations. This is what many scams do, because it is an efficient way to reach many people. To remove some connotations, perhaps the reward could be limited in time, for example you get 10% of other person's reward only for 2 years. (To make it certain nobody is promissing you to "find 10 more people, and then you don't have to work again, ever".)

Comment author: spoutdoors 22 August 2012 05:04:27PM 1 point [-]

That's definitely a possibility! Ideally we want to harness the natural creativity that fuels capitalism - so we want to allow some flexibility in how workers get recruited while still making sure the incentives are aligned to promote beneficial outcomes.