cousin_it comments on The noncentral fallacy - the worst argument in the world? - Less Wrong

157 Post author: Yvain 27 August 2012 03:36AM

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Comment author: cousin_it 27 August 2012 07:30:29PM *  15 points [-]

I dislike accusations of sexism as much as the next guy, but in the last year or two I have started to think that ev-psych is way overconfident. The coarse grained explanation is that ev-psych seems to be "softer" than regular psychology, which itself is "softer" than medicine, and we all know what percentage of medical findings are wrong. I'd be curious to learn what other LWers think about this, especially you, because your writings got me interested in ev-psych in the first place.

Comment author: MichaelHoward 27 August 2012 09:17:21PM 3 points [-]

I have started to think that ev-psych is way overconfident.

As in about the likelihood of certain kinds of explanations?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 August 2012 03:49:47AM 2 points [-]

Can't think anything without a concrete example.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 28 August 2012 11:24:23AM 3 points [-]

I am going to rehearse saying this in a robotic voice, while spinning round and round flailing my arms in a mechanical fashion.

Comment author: moocow1452 28 August 2012 01:41:19PM 3 points [-]

Can you put it up on Youtube when you're done?

Comment author: J_Taylor 28 August 2012 10:38:28PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 August 2012 02:23:06PM 5 points [-]

So far as I know, the association of pink with girls and blue with boys is a western custom which only goes back a century or so.

Comment author: J_Taylor 30 August 2012 11:18:08PM 3 points [-]

Precisely.

Comment author: novalis 27 August 2012 10:07:40PM 1 point [-]

This seems like a qualitative argument, when a quantitative argument would be more interesting. Who is the John Ioannidis of evolutionary psychology? Or, what research has been published that has later turned out to be false?

(Also, why do you dislike accusations of sexism? Shouldn't you only dislike false accusations of sexism?)

Comment author: Decius 29 August 2012 12:31:57AM 1 point [-]

I dislike accusations of sexism for the same reason I dislike accusations of any other negative behavior. Those accusations signal either sexism or false accusations of sexism, both of which are net negatives to me.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 30 August 2012 03:27:12AM -1 points [-]

(Also, why do you dislike accusations of sexism? Shouldn't you only dislike false accusations of sexism?)

See the OP.

Comment author: novalis 01 September 2012 04:02:30AM -1 points [-]

Because you and I no doubt hang out in completely different circles, my view of the prototypical case of sexism is probably different from yours. Also, I consider most non-prototypical cases of sexism to be wrong, so there aren't really any connotations being smuggled in.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 02 September 2012 01:35:35AM 0 points [-]

Also, I consider most non-prototypical cases of sexism to be wrong,

I may or may not agree depending on which definition of "sexism" you are using.

so there aren't really any connotations being smuggled in.

Well, in any debate you'd still have to explain why that particular example of sexism is wrong.

Comment author: novalis 02 September 2012 03:03:18AM 0 points [-]

Well, in any debate you'd still have to explain why that particular example of sexism is wrong.

Not if (a) you're in a situation where everyone already agrees on that or (b) you consider fairness to be an important value.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 September 2012 02:03:27AM 0 points [-]

Not if (a) you're in a situation where everyone already agrees on that

And assuming you also don't want to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong. In any case, as you may have noticed, that's not true here.

(b) you consider fairness to be an important value.

More like you consider a particular interpretation of fairness to be such an important value that it trumps all others.

Comment author: novalis 03 September 2012 02:39:29AM 0 points [-]

Not if (a) you're in a situation where everyone already agrees on that

And assuming you also don't want to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong. In any case, as you > may have noticed, that's not true here.

Having common language and beliefs does not preclude questioning those beliefs.

(b) you consider fairness to be an important value.

More like you consider a particular interpretation of fairness to be such an important value that it trumps all others.

Can you unpack that?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 September 2012 10:19:35PM 0 points [-]

Ok, I suppose I should ask you what your definition of sexism is.

Also, is e.g., affirmative action sexist, how about not using affirmative action? Same question about desperate impact?

Comment author: novalis 04 September 2012 12:49:06AM 0 points [-]

Sexism can mean a whole bunch of different things. It's not a simple binary predicate: this is sexist, that isn't. In general, I mean a cluster of attitudes and actions that harm people based on their sex. Usually, its women being harmed, but definitely not always.

Affirmative action is, of course, an interesting case. On its face, it involves advantaging one group, which naturally comes at the expense of all other groups. So, of course it's sexism in one sense of the word. So why does anyone think it's fair? Because there are believed to be cognitive biases in play that prevent people from (for instance) selecting an equally qualified woman for a job (one day, I would like to write up a post on the evidence for this). The theory is that an explicit adjustment for these biases will result in treatment more like what there would have been if employers were unbiased. If this theory is correct, then in cases where we believe that there is such discrimination, maintaining the status quo would be sexism. Naturally, not all cases of affirmative action qualify for this.

As the discussion on The Bedrock Of Fairness shows, fairness can have many meanings. They frequently correspond almost exactly to meta-ethical stances (consequentialist, deontological, virtue ethics). I'm a consequentialist with regards to fairness (since I view it as merely a part of the whole system of ethics). And affirmative action is only justifiable under a consequentialist (or perhaps virtue ethics) framework of fairness -- and then only sometimes. I guess that is, as you say, one particular interpretation of fairness, but it's one that I would imagine is relatively common here, since consequentialist ethics are relatively popular on Less Wrong.