dspeyer comments on The noncentral fallacy - the worst argument in the world? - Less Wrong

157 Post author: Yvain 27 August 2012 03:36AM

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Comment author: Xachariah 27 August 2012 11:05:55PM 1 point [-]

Even if your post remains voted down, I thought it was funny.

Comment author: dspeyer 28 August 2012 01:56:49AM 2 points [-]

Voting up things purely because they're funny tends to be bad for serious discussion forums like this one. If encouraged, purely funny content has a tendency to take over and crowd out insightful content.

I like funny content, but not at the risk of insightful content.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 29 August 2012 01:46:29PM 2 points [-]

Being funny should not be the best way to get highly upvoted, yes. And failed funny should be negative.

Using votes to move things toward what you consider their 'proper level' seems the best here. Let the funny get one or two. Insight, more.

Comment author: chaosmosis 28 August 2012 03:16:55AM 0 points [-]

My comment provided an insight insofar as it explicitly connected the analysis to Immanuel Kant's writing in order to criticize it.

Comment author: J_Taylor 28 August 2012 04:13:11AM 1 point [-]

Can you think of an example of Kant using this form of argumentation?

Comment author: OpenThreadGuy 28 August 2012 04:40:08AM 4 points [-]

Ending on a high note: "Deontology is the philosophy of enshrining the Worst Argument In The World as the only acceptable form of moral reasoning." Discuss.

-Original (and in my opinion better) version of this article

Comment author: [deleted] 28 August 2012 05:40:26PM -1 points [-]

I'd like to see more on that.

Comment author: chaosmosis 28 August 2012 05:12:56PM -1 points [-]

The categorical imperative, it's even in the name.

Comment author: [deleted] 28 August 2012 05:25:06PM 3 points [-]

Can you elaborate a bit on that? Your comment also struck me as glib, but I'd be interested to hear if you have a real argument in the background.

Comment author: chaosmosis 29 August 2012 03:10:38AM *  1 point [-]

The Categorical Imperative is all about generalizing specific experiences into moral rules based on supposed laws of rationality that really don't exist. It's like if you had to act superrationally, all the time, and that's what Kant's view of morality is, and he says that it's logically contradictory to act otherwise, which leads to doing stupid things like not defecting against naive opponents in the PD. If everyone actually did abide by the Categorical Imperative, there would be no theft and no murder, but also no artists or scientists, only boring farmers with their individuality stripped to a bare minimum. It would be awful.

He applies a variation of the Worst Argument in the World to the definition of "should" and to morality itself, as well as all actions that you're considering the morality of, basically. So, for example, he argues that anything that can be considered theft is irrational and immoral because if everyone committed all acts of theft imaginable, society would collapse, and thus the idea of property wouldn't exist, and thus we would have created a "contradiction", and thus that would violate a universal definition of the word should, and it would thus be immoral (this isn't me being dumb and misapplying his ideas, as he actually makes this line of argument somewhere or other. It's a good example of why I find him idiotic).

Relevant passage from Nietzsche's The Gay Science (Unfortunately, this is somewhat longer than I remembered. However, it's a good read, and Nietzsche's sarcastic tone here is undoubtedly amusing. And, anyone who wants a serious discussion of deontology is just asking to be inundated with walls of text anyway, so they basically deserve it [this parenthetical is somewhat tongue in cheek, as well.]):

Long Live Physics!

How many men are there who know how to observe? And among the few who do know, how many observe themselves? "Everyone is furthest from himself" all those who try to harness the self know that to their cost - and the saying, "Know thyself," in the mouth of a God and spoken to man, is almost malicious. But that the case of self observation is so desperate, is attested best of all by the manner in which almost everybody talks of the nature of a moral action, that prompt, willing, convinced, loquacious manner, with its look, its smile, and its pleasing eagerness! Everyone seems inclined to say to you: "Why, my dear Sir, that is precisely my affair! You address yourself with your question to him who is authorised to answer, for I happen to be wiser with regard to this matter than in anything else. Therefore, when a man decides that this is right} when he accordingly concludes that it must therefore be done, and thereupon does what he has thus recognised as right and designated as necessary then the nature of his action is moral!" But, my friend, you are talking to me about three actions instead of one: your deciding, for instance, that "this is right," is also an action, could one not judge either morally or immorally? Why do you regard this, and just this, as right? "Because my conscience tells me so; conscience never speaks immorally, indeed it determines in the first place what shall be moral!" But why do you listen to the voice of your conscience? What gives you the right to think that such judgements are true and infallible? For this faith - is there not a further conscience for that? Do you know nothing of an intellectual conscience - a conscience behind your "conscience"?

Your decision, "this is right," has a previous history in your impulses, your likes and dislikes, your experiences and non experiences; "how has it originated?" you must ask, and after wards the further question: "what really impels me to give ear to it?" You can listen to its command like a brave soldier who hears the command of his officer. Or like a woman who loves him who commands. Or like a flatterer and coward, afraid of the commander. Or like a blockhead who follows because he has nothing to say to the contrary. In short, there are a hundred different ways that you can listen to your conscience. But that you hear this or that judgment as the voice of conscience, consequently, that you feel a thing to be right may have its cause in the fact that you have never thought about your nature, and have blindly accepted from your childhood what has been designated to you as right: or in the fact that hitherto bread and honours have fallen to your share with that which you call your duty, it is "right" to you, because it seems to be your "condition of existence" (that you, however, have a right to existence seems to you irrefutable!) The persistency of your moral judgment might still be just a proof of personal wretchedness or impersonality; your "moral force" might have its source in your obstinacy or in your incapacity to perceive new ideals! And to be brief: if you had thought more acutely, observed more accurately, and had learned more, you would no longer under all circumstances call this and that your "duty" and your "conscience": the knowledge how moral judgments have in general always originated would make you tired of these pathetic words, as you have already grown tired of other pathetic words, for instance "sin," "salvation," and "redemption."

And now, my friend, do not talk to me about the categorical imperative! That word tickles my ear, and I must laugh in spite of your presence and your seriousness. In this connection I recollect old Kant, who, as a punishment for having gained possession surreptitiously of the "thing in itself" also a very ludicrous affair! was imposed upon by the categorical imperative, and with that in his heart strayed back again to "God," the "soul," "freedom," and "immortality," like a fox which strays back into its cage: and it had been his strength and shrewdness which had broken open this cage! What? You admire the categorical imperative in you? This "persistency" of your so called moral judgment? This absoluteness of the feeling that "as I think on this matter, so must everyone think"? Admire rather your selfishness therein! And the blindness, paltriness, and modesty of your selfishness! For it is selfishness in a person to regard his judgment as universal law, and a blind, paltry and modest selfishness besides, because it betrays that you have not yet discovered yourself, that you have not yet created for yourself any personal, quite personal ideal: for this could never be the ideal of another, to say nothing of all, of everyone! He who still thinks that "each would have to act in this manner in this case," has not yet advanced half a dozen paces in self knowledge: otherwise he would know that there neither are, nor can be, similar actions, that every action that has been done, has been done in an entirely unique and inimitable manner, and that it will be the same with regard to all future actions; that all precepts of conduct (and even the most esoteric and subtle precepts of all moralities up to the present), apply only to the coarse exterior, that by means of them, indeed, a semblance of equality can be attained, but only a semblance, that in outlook and retrospect, every action is, and remains, an impenetrable affair, that our opinions of the "good," "noble" and "great" can never be proved by our actions, because no action is knowable, that our opinions, estimates, and tables of values are certainly among the most powerful levers in the mechanism of our actions, that in every single case, nevertheless, the law of their mechanism is untraceable.

Let us confine ourselves, therefore, to the purification of our opinions and appreciations, and to the construction of new tables of value of our own: we will, however, brood no longer over the" moral worth of our actions"! Yes, my friends! As regards the whole moral twaddle of people about one another, it is time to be disgusted with it! To sit in judgment morally ought to be opposed to our taste! Let us leave this nonsense and this bad taste to those who have nothing else to do, save to drag the past a little distance further through time, and who are never themselves the present, consequently to the many, to the majority! We, however, would seek to become what we are, the new, the unique, the m comparable, making laws for ourselves and creating ourselves! And for this purpose we must become the best students and discoverers of all the laws and necessities in the world. We must be physicists in order to be creators in that sense, whereas hitherto all appreciations and ideals have been based on ignorance of physics, or in contradiction thereto. And therefore, three cheers for physics! And still louder cheers for that which impels us to it our honesty.

I often feel like cheering aloud after reading that passage; it's one of my favorites.

EDIT: It seems like there's no standard way to divide the paragraphs, and the website I found the quote on had no paragraph breaks at all, so I just did it on my own by dividing it where it felt natural to me.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 August 2012 06:52:56PM 3 points [-]

So, for example, he argues that anything that can be considered theft is irrational and immoral because if everyone committed all acts of theft imaginable, society would collapse, and thus the idea of property wouldn't exist, and thus we would have created a "contradiction", and thus that would violate a universal definition of the word should, and it would thus be immoral

This doesn't sound like a case of the 'worst argument in the world'. Also, I've now twice encountered someone here who seems to be literally angry at a long dead philosopher. This is very confusing to me.

Comment author: chaosmosis 29 August 2012 10:14:14PM *  3 points [-]

Kant rejects all specific cases of theft because he considers all general cases of theft to be "wrong" (because if all possible thefts happened it would create a "contradiction" according to his interpretation). Does that clarify what I'm saying?

I don't feel angry at Kant, but I do like mocking him.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 August 2012 12:37:35AM *  5 points [-]

But Kant doesn't hang anything on a term, like 'theft', in the way the WAITW does. Let's look at Kant's argument for this claim in the Groundwork. The following is from the second chapter of the Groundwork, which you can get online at earlymoderntexts.com (pages 24-25 in that copy):

(2) Another man sees himself being driven by need to borrow money. He realizes that no-one will lend to him unless he firmly promises to repay it at a certain time, and he is well aware that he wouldn’t be able to keep such a promise. He is disposed to make such a promise, but he has enough conscience to ask himself: ‘Isn’t it improper and opposed to duty to relieve one’s needs in that way?’ If he does decide to make the promise, the maxim of his action will run like this: When I think I need money, I will borrow money and promise to repay it, although I know that the repayment won’t ever happen.

Here he is—for the rest of this paragraph—reflecting on this·: ‘It may be that this principle of self-love or of personal advantage would fit nicely into my whole future welfare, ·so that there is no prudential case against it·. But the question remains: would it be right? ·To answer this·, I change the demand of self-love into a universal law, and then put the question like this: If my maxim became a universal law, then how would things stand? I can see straight off that it could never hold as a universal law of nature, and must contradict itself. For if you take a law saying that anyone who thinks he is in need can make any promises he likes without intending to keep them, and make it universal ·so that everyone in need does behave in this way·, that would make the promise and the intended purpose of it impossible—no-one would believe what was promised to him but would only laugh at any such performance as a vain pretense.’

So it's not that this guy's lie is a case of some more general act 'lying' which involves a contradiction. Rather, the maxim which describes this specific action cannot be understood as a universal law. That doesn't make the action in any way contradictory. In fact, it's a neat fulfillment of the demands of self-love. The point is that the agent is incapable, once he reflects on his action, of thinking of the action as one prescribed entirely by reason, because reason always speaks in universals, and this action cannot be understood as a case of a universal. Edit: To clarify, Kant's point isn't that this example is a case of a more general kind which is wrong, his point is that the lie is wrong because there's no more general kind of rational action (which is to say, action, full stop) to which it can belong.

That's why I don't think this is a case of the WAITW, even if it happens also to be a bad argument. Incidentally, it's worth noting (I've never noticed this before) that the whole second paragraph is the inner monologue of the lying man himself, not some external analysis. Kant never thought that the CI was somehow something no one could wriggle out of, only that it was in fact the core of the reflections of conscience that we do make.

Edit: I think the idea of mocking or ridiculing some idea or thinker should be met with extreme suspicion, and I think Nietzsche would probably even agree with me on that. Laughing at Kant is a way of not thinking about Kant. For Nietzsche, it was important that we be capable of just not thinking about some things, but we do so at the risk of just laughing everything off, even stuff we should be thinking about. And laughing has no internal limits, no little alarm that goes off when you laugh off something important.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 29 August 2012 01:44:31PM *  2 points [-]

Did he write that with paragraph breaks? If so, please restore them. If not... Dang, Nietsche had lousy style.

(Edited to reverse the conditionals so it made sense)

Comment author: chaosmosis 29 August 2012 10:45:35PM 1 point [-]

Please provide me with instructions as to how to insert paragraph breaks within quotes.

Comment author: arundelo 29 August 2012 11:47:12PM 4 points [-]

Same as outside of a quote -- paragraphs are separated by blank lines. (Which, in the context of a quote, means a line with nothing but a greater-than sign.)

> this is
> the first
> paragraph
>
> this is
> the second
> paragraph