Rain comments on The noncentral fallacy - the worst argument in the world? - Less Wrong

157 Post author: Yvain 27 August 2012 03:36AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 September 2012 01:43:22AM 7 points [-]

Keep in mind that it's not "more people" it's more "people who participate in meta threads on Less Wrong". I've observed a tremendous divergence between the latter set, and "what LWers seem to think during real-life conversations" (e.g. July Minicamp private discussions of LW which is where the anti-troll-thread ideas were discussed, asking what people thought about recent changes at Alicorn's most recent dinner party). I'm guessing there's some sort of effect where only people who disagree bother to keep looking at the thread, hence bother to comment.

Some "people" were claiming that we ought to fix things by moderation instead of making code changes, which does seem worth trying; so I've said to Alicorn to open fire with all weapons free, and am trying this myself while code work is indefinitely in progress. I confess I did anticipate that this would also be downvoted even though IIRC the request to do that was upvoted last time, because at this point I've formed the generalization "all moderator actions are downvoted", either because only some people participate in meta threads, and/or the much more horrifying hypothesis "everyone who doesn't like the status quo has already stopped regularly checking LessWrong".

I'm diligently continuing to accept feedback from RL contact and attending carefully to this non-filtered source of impressions and suggestions, but I'm afraid I've pretty much written-off trying to figure out what the community-as-a-whole wants by looking at "the set of people who vigorously participate in meta discussions on LW" because it's so much unlike the reactions I got when ideas for improving LW were being discussed at the July Minicamp, or the distribution of opinions at Alicorn's last dinner party, and I presume that any other unfiltered source of reactions would find this conversation similarly unrepresentative.

Comment author: Rain 14 September 2012 02:40:55AM *  9 points [-]

I very much appreciate the attempts at greater moderation, including the troll penalty. Thank you.

Comment author: Sarokrae 14 September 2012 06:11:18AM 9 points [-]

Me too. Troll posts and really wrong people are too distracting without some form of intervention. Not sure the current solution is optimal (but this point has been extensively argued elsewhere), but I applaud the effort to actually stick one's neck out and try something.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 September 2012 11:19:51AM 5 points [-]

Thank you both. Very much, and sincerely.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 14 September 2012 05:25:39PM *  10 points [-]

Accepting thanks with sincerity, while somewhat-flippantly mostly-disregarding complaints? ...I must be missing some hidden justification?

Comment author: wedrifid 14 September 2012 05:29:59PM 5 points [-]

Accepting thanks with sincerity, while somewhat-flippantly mostly-disregarding complaints? ...I must be missing some hidden justification?

He is thanking them for their support, not their information.

Comment author: philh 14 September 2012 05:40:00PM 5 points [-]

People who agree are more likely to keep quiet than people who disagree. Rewarding them for speaking up reduces that effect, which means comments get closer to accurately representing consensus.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 September 2012 05:47:29PM 1 point [-]

Can you summarize your reasons for believing that people who agree are more likely to keep quiet than people who disagree?

Comment author: philh 14 September 2012 06:03:23PM 2 points [-]

It's the impression I've got from informal observation, and it's true when talking about myself specifically. (If I disagree, I presumably have something to say that has not yet been said. If I agree, that's less likely to be true. I don't know if that's the whole reason, but it feels like a substantial part of it.)

http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/ provides an anecdote, and suggests that Eliezer has also gotten the same impression.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 September 2012 06:15:08PM *  3 points [-]

I certainly agree with your last sentence.

My own experience is that while people are more likely to express immediate disagreement than agreement in contexts where disagreement is expressed at all, they are also more likely to express disagreement with expressed disagreement in such forums, from which agreement can be inferred (much as I can infer your agreement with EY's behavior from your disagreement with Will_Newsome). The idea that they are more likely to keep quiet in general, or that people are more likely to anonymously downvote what they disagree with than upvote what they agree with, doesn't jive with my experience.

And in contexts where disagreement is not expressed, I find the Asch results align pretty well with my informal expectations of group behavior.

Comment author: philh 14 September 2012 06:20:52PM 2 points [-]

they are also more likely to express disagreement with expressed disagreement in such forums, from which agreement can be inferred

I admit that I hadn't considered this mechanism. I have no gut feeling for whether it's true or not, but it sounds plausible.

Comment author: shminux 14 September 2012 06:04:30PM 1 point [-]

Do you doubt that content people whine less?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 September 2012 06:08:16PM 0 points [-]

No, I don't doubt that content people whine less.

Comment author: shminux 14 September 2012 06:16:18PM *  -1 points [-]

Then I do not understand your request for further explanations.