lincolnquirk comments on UPDATE: Society of Venturism is spearheading Kim Suozzi's cryopreservation charity - Less Wrong

16 Post author: dblch 27 August 2012 06:51AM

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Comment author: lincolnquirk 27 August 2012 02:41:50PM 13 points [-]

I just donated $100. I second the request for an update on funding progress. And I'm totally coming to the party on the other side. :)

I donated because I want to support cryonics movement-building, and Kim seems like a great poster child for this purpose.

Kim, I have no idea how much time free time you have, but given that you're in a little bit of a spotlight right now, you may be able to construct an opportunity to create a larger public discussion about cryonics through the media. Assuming your suspension is funded, that's probably one of the most impactful things you could do to increase the chances that you and other cryo patients will wake up.

Comment author: advancedatheist 27 August 2012 03:46:44PM 1 point [-]

I haven't met Kim or otherwise communicated with her, but I get the impression that she shows some of the signs of the cryonicist personality, however in a female package. For example, anthropologist Tiffany Romain, an outside observer, studied cryonicists using the tools of social science and wrote the paper, "Extreme Life Extension: Investing in Cryonics for the Long, Long Term," where she characterizes cryonicists as follows:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01459741003715391

Cryonics is a particularly American social practice, created and taken up by a particular type of American: primarily a small faction of white, male, atheist, Libertarian, middle- and upper-middle-income, computer engineering ‘‘geeks’’ who believe passionately in the free market and its ability to support technological progress.

Not all cryonicists fit this profile, of course. But Kim, apparently an atheist libertarian who studies cognitive science at university, would probably fit in well with the cryonicist community even if she didn't feel such urgency to get her suspension arrangements in place. I would certainly welcome her, even if I probably wont't have the opportunity to become acquainted with her. I might have to wait to do that if we both make it to The Other Side. ; )

Of course, the cryonics movement needs to find ways to break out of its geek ghetto and appeal to the broader society.. Here evolutionary psychology could work to our advantage, because we have a bias towards helping the vulnerable women in our tribe of reproductive age, but in this case without having to use our bodies to shield them from bullets. I question the propriety of calling Kim cryonics' "poster child," but her plight humanizes cryonics in a way which doesn't come along very often.

Comment author: palladias 27 August 2012 04:55:06PM 1 point [-]

Here evolutionary psychology could work to our advantage, because we have a bias towards helping the vulnerable women in our tribe of reproductive age, but in this case without having to use our bodies to shield them from bullets.

Can you be more specific about how you'd mobilize this instinct? Do you see examples of cryonics enthusiasts preferentially funding or pitching "vulnerable women in our tribe of reproductive age?"

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Comment author: Dolores1984 27 August 2012 05:42:24PM 13 points [-]

As a general rule, rationality is not an excuse to be a dick. Go away.

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Comment author: shokwave 28 August 2012 08:51:13AM 4 points [-]

The claim is that your statements are offensive or upsetting to some people, and Dolores1984 wants you to leave so that you do not make offensive or upsetting statements in the future. The argument surrounding this claim is that you have incorrectly cloaked your upsetting statements in the terminology of "rationality".

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Comment author: evand 28 August 2012 02:09:16PM 3 points [-]

There may or may not be good arguments to be made here. You might even be making them.

However, to the extent you are, you are also obscuring them through poor writing, offensive language, and generally "being a dick". Your writing is not at the level I wish to encourage on Less Wrong, hence I will not reward it by responding to the arguments, and will punish it through downvotes.

Take a constructive approach, assume good faith on the part of the people you are conversing with, and show them the respect of laying out your arguments in a coherent fashion, and I think you might find constructive replies.

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Comment author: shokwave 28 August 2012 01:21:24PM 1 point [-]

So it seems that calling a dying person "poster child" and "vulnerable woman in our tribe of reproductive age" and trying to exploit her plight to further a questionable agenda is perfectly fine

I believe both terms (especially "vulnerable woman in our tribe of reproductive age") are recognising and explicitly indicating that this is an appeal to the emotions. Donors have presumably evaluated the consequences of donating and not simply thrown money at the cause because it pulls on their heartstrings.

Rationality is orthogonal to emotions and is not opposed to appeals of emotion for acts with net positive consequences. I personally think cryonics is net positive despite the uncertainty and I don't agree with your framing of it as a "questionable practice".

I believe the offence derives from you implying or stating that the act of donating was net negative when their evaluation was net positive. Naturally, simply opposing a position is not offensive, but it's rude not to back your point up, and people might be especially predisposed to care about rudeness when they've just donated and heightened the activity of morality-sensing brain segments.

Comment author: V_V 28 August 2012 09:59:31PM 1 point [-]

Rationality is orthogonal to emotions and is not opposed to appeals of emotion for acts with net positive consequences.

Rationality and emotions are not necessarily opposed, but strong emotions can cloud rational judgment.

Cryonics is expecially prone to appeal to emotion, since mortality and group identity ("our tribe") are very powerful sources of emotion. Thus, if you want to keep the discussion about cryonics rational, you should recognize this and try keep the emotional charge as small as possible.

People who propose to spin in the public discourse "poster children" optimized to generate the maximum emotional reaction, are trying to do exactly the opposite, which is a tactic I find intellectually dishonest. Even if you think that cryonics is good for those who sign up, making people sign up for irrational reasons is unethical, in my opinion.

I personally think cryonics is net positive despite the uncertainty and I don't agree with your framing of it as a "questionable practice".

The dictionary definition of questionable is: "open to question or dispute; doubtful or uncertain". If you agree that cryonics has large uncertainty, then you should agree that it is a questionable practice.

I believe the offence derives from you implying or stating that the act of donating was net negative when their evaluation was net positive. Naturally, simply opposing a position is not offensive, but it's rude not to back your point up

I'm not arguing that donating to Suozzi is intrinsically unethical, I'm arguing that donating to Suozzi for PR purposes is unethical. I admit that in my original comment I've used a confrontational tone which might not have been optimal to convey my point, but I stand my point and hope that my position is now clear.

Comment author: CarlShulman 31 August 2012 11:46:01AM 1 point [-]

Donors have presumably evaluated the consequences of donating and not simply thrown money at the cause because it pulls on their heartstrings.

This actually seems fairly abnormal for charitable donations in general.

lincolnquirk comments on UPDATE: Society of Venturism is spearheading Kim Suozzi's cryopreservation charity - Less Wrong

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