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CWG comments on Preventing discussion from being watered down by an "endless September" user influx. - Less Wrong
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You seem to be assuming that honest criticism also has to mean throwing manners out the window. I do not assume this, and it didn't occur to me to predict that others would assume that when I was writing this. I'll have to update that part.
Poorly informed ranters wanting to debate does sound annoying, I didn't realize there was a problem with that. It seems to me the best way to deter them would be to paste a link that's directly related to their points and ignore them. Do that enough times and they'll probably wake up and realize they've got a problem with not knowing what they're talking about. What have you guys tried? Maybe a better question would be "What would you suggest?"
I haven't come across this either. Doesn't the downvoting minimize this problem?
That said, I like civility to be one of the core principles of any discussion group - but without every feeling we have to agree with what someone else is saying.
No, not really. They say things like "hahahaha, sure, downvote me more, that only proves me right, you're unable to actually address my arguments!" And then people try to address their arguments and get nowhere. It's a remarkably consistent type, actually. This problem is one of the things the controversial new trollfeeding tax is meant to handle.
Spot on. And bizarrely enough there even seems to be a remarkable correlation in the kind of positions this type supports. Something along the lines of an "Incorrect Metacontrarian Cluster".
http://websites.psychology.uwa.edu.au/labs/cogscience/documents/LskyetalPsychScienceinPressClimateConspiracy.pdf seems relevant:
Votes don't train newbies.
Being a new users who gets voted down sometimes, I can tell you it seems completely random. I can't tell whether it's a troll, or someone with a vendetta or what it is. And even if I brainstorm a bunch of guesses, the little number at the top of my comment doesn't tell me which one is correct. This expectation that downvotes are going to help new users learn how to behave is even worse than that though, in a whole bunch of ways at once. I wrote about that here:
Idea For Karma Improvements and Why We Need Them
Yes they do.
You have been given an abundance of explanations regarding people's reactions which you could, if it is your desire, use to gain more support for your comments.
My model of the reception of your comments suggests that you do have several people with a 'vendetta', or at least several people who are highly predisposed to downvote you prior to reading your contributions. But that is to be expected. I get people targetting me all the time and if I didn't it would probably be a sign that I was neglecting my duty. Having a few individuals targetting you isn't a problem. The problem comes when you cannot garner sufficient support from the other, neutral readers to counter the initial downvotes and leave most of your comments as net positive. That is a sign that is worth paying more attention to politics and perception---and again you've got personal feedback you could use toward that end.
Are you really saying that, if motivated, you couldn't work out how to change your behavior such that your comments were more likely to be well received? I mean come on, the thought "Oh, I suppose I should convey less arrogance" is a good starting place for reducing social sanction in just about any social structure that you are relatively new member of. (Note that I am talking specifically about conveyed arrogance, not actual arrogance. People can get away with being completely obstinate and incapable of learning from the words of others so long as they send the right signals of humility.)
You read that comment completely out of context and also you seem unaware that at first I was not getting constructive criticism. People only started criticizing me after I decided I was tired of unexplained downvotes and started to advertise in various places (at the ends of my discussion posts, and in my various comments expressing an interest in being challenged intellectually) that I genuinely want honest criticism. My experience is that LessWrong members needed to be convinced that it really was okay to criticize me before they started giving me the large amount of helpful feedback you're seeing. You're very bold, Wedrifid, so you probably figure other people are as comfortable criticizing others as you are. Maybe you think I must have been getting bold criticisms this whole time. I wasn't.
The context in which I wrote that comment was this: I was explaining that OTHER new people don't get feedback, in order to explain that the downvotes aren't training them. If you think about it, you even said in your own post that it was the explanation that people use to improve themselves. The votes aren't the same as verbal feedback. Are the other newbies getting the kind of feedback I am? I bet most of them aren't. I was outgoing enough to guess that the reason I wasn't getting feedback is because people didn't feel comfortable criticizing me and chose to begin advertising that I want honest criticisms. I doubt most of your newbies are doing the same thing. Try an experiment. Make a new account. Post things people won't like. See how many of them actually get verbal feedback. Then, advertise that you want constructive criticism. Post the same number of things people won't like, and count how many of those got you verbal feedback.
I find your perspective on vendettas and duty refreshing, so thank you. Your comment makes me feel glad that you think I am worth saving. But since you intended to save me from my own stupidity, I feel a little annoyed that you thought I needed it. Do you observe from my behaviors that I do not apply constructive criticism? That I whine about problems rather than contributing to the solution? My intent was to notify you guys that without feedback, the downvotes don't train newbies. People seem to think they do, but unless people tell you their reasons for pressing the button, it's just a flurry of numbers. The power is not in vote buttons, it's in clear communication.
I definitely want to know when I make a mistake, but if you find yourself typing something to me like "oh, come on" or "are you really" in the future, please consider that I may not actually be stupid enough to warrant it. Thanks.
I'm not sure to what extent I did that, but in any case I have a core disagreement with the claim that downvotes do not train newbies. My expectation is that the simple feedback mechanism increases the speed at which newbies absorb local norms and all my observations thus far confirm this. It isn't the only thing that teaches newbies and it isn't a perfect mechanism but it certainly helps. Most people don't like getting downvotes and are take action to avoid them.
My position is that even in the absence of any explicit verbal feedback downvotes do train newbies (and non-newbies). Verbal explanations can also help (and sometimes hinder). I expect that there is plenty of scope for improving newbie learning through constructive feedback---this is something that complements and works alongside the karma system, not something made necessary because the the karma system is completely ineffective for the purpose.
It is almost always a bad idea to use oneself as an example when making any kind of general criticism of the karma system. Disagreement will inevitably seem personal!
I disagreed. This is a testable prediction but not easily so. With a suitably designed experiment I would predict a greater degree of learning in the voted on but not explained group than you would. To be clear I think the power is in the vote buttons AND in clear communicaiton.
I am of course willing to use different phrasing. I was intending to convey that it is well within your capability to avoid downvotes if that was a task you set for yourself. It is legitimate to have other higher priorities than avoiding downvotes but those who are not trying to avoid them may appear not to be learning from them. That is, I was questioning that the "Ephiphany" anecdote is an indication that newbies do not learn from downvotes because they don't have enough information. I acknowledge from the parent that you are referring to earlier experience prior to you changing the way you interact and so the above is less applicable.