beoShaffer comments on Open Thread, September 1-15, 2012 - Less Wrong
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Lol thank you Wedrifid, that was refreshing, and you were pretty good.
I disagree with you, but you're welcome to continue the disagreement with me. (:
Just because other people use those as signals that a person is in a particular place in a hierarchy does not mean that:
A. I believe in social hierarchies or that social hierarchies even exist. (I see them as an illusion).
B. The specific reason I am attracted to these qualities is due to an attraction to people in a certain position in the social hierarchy.
The reasons I want someone who is able to defeat me in a debate are:
It gets extremely tedious to disagree with people who can't. I end up teaching them things endlessly in order to get us to a point of agreement, while learning too little.
I might get careless if nobody knocks me down for a long time. It's not good for me.
It is rather uncomfortable and awkward in a relationship or even a friendship if one person is always right and the other always loses debates. That feels wrong.
"Fluff, no." vs "You have your own preferences and other people see your preference as fluff."
If I said I had a million dollars, but really, I was a million dollars in debt, would that be an empty claim? Yes. If a person is spending beyond their means in order to signal that they have money, they're being dishonest. So that's fluff.
If social hierarchies don't actually exist, and a person signals that they're in one, is that real, or is it a fantasy? if they don't exist, it's fluff.
"This seems tautologically likely."
Okay, this was an embarrassing failure to use clear wording on my part. Although you're not actually disagreeing with me, you got me good, lol.
That was fun. Feel free to disagree with me from now on.
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
These are decent reasons to intentionally seek out someone who can out debate you, however as far as actual attraction goes they make just as much, if not more sense as post-hoc rationalizations as real reasons. As Yvain has explained all introspection of the type you are engaging is prone to this error mode and while reasons your reasons 1 & 3 aren't completely inconsistent with our knowledge of human attraction they don't fit as well as the hypothesis that you are attracted to behaviors that signal high IQ and/or status while side-steping your issues with the most common ways of displaying those traits (this is largely based on what I've been told in various psychology classes, I don't have the original studies that my professors based their conclusions on on hand).
-edit if anyone knows how to make blockquote play nice with the original formatting let me know, I think this works for now.
On introspection biases: For minor things, I wouldn't be surprised if I make errors in judging why I do them, because it can take a bit of rigor to do this well. But if something is important, I can use meta-cognition and ask myself a series of questions (carefully worded - this is a skill I have practiced), seeing how I feel after each, to determine why I am doing something. I carefully word them to prevent myself from taking them as suggestions. Instead, I make sure I interpret them as yes or no questions. For instance: "Does class make me feel attracted?" instead of "Should I feel attracted to class?" - it's an important distinction to make, especially for certain topics like fears. "Am I afraid of spiders because I assume they're poisonous?" will get a totally different reaction (assuming I am not afraid of them) than "Would I be afraid of spiders if I thought they are all poisonous?"
It takes a little concentration to get it right during introspection.
So we'll start with class for example. I ask myself "Do I find class attractive?" and I can ask myself things like "Imagine a guy with lots of money asks me out. How do I feel?" and "Imagine a guy who has things in common with me asks me out, how do I feel?" If you ask enough questions for compare and contrast, you can get pretty good answers this way.
To make sure I'm not just having random reactions based on how I want to feel, I come up with real examples from my recent past. In the last year or so, I have been asked out by or dated a lot of different people with varying amounts of income. There were a lot of guys who are making 6 figures - this is because I tend to attract well paid IT guys. I liked some of them but didn't like all of them. Some of the guys making 6 figures didn't attract me whatsoever. So income doesn't make me like a guy all by itself.
I can ask "Does having a high income make me like them more?"
The two top attractions of all time, for me, were to an underpaid writer and a college student.
I can ask "Does availability of men with lots of money have anything to do with it?"
After dating something like five or ten guys who make around 6 figures over the last year and someodd, the one I liked best actually makes a moderate income. There is another guy that does make a large income that I liked quite a bit. But if the fact that guys who make 6 figures are available was going to interfere, it wouldn't make sense that I'd have liked the guy with a moderate income so much.
So, there are ways to determine what your real motivations are - but it takes skill, and requires more rigor that the quick answers these people are giving in the studies, for sure.
Believing oneself to be an exceptional case was a common failure mode among the subjects of studies summarized in Yvain's article. When confronted with the experimental results showing how their behavior was influenced in ways unknown to them, they would either deny it outright or admit that it is a very interesting phenomenon that surely affected other people but they happened to be the lone exception to the rule.
That doesn't really preclude your introspective skills (I actually believe such skills can be developed to an extent) but it should make you suspicious.
Have you done any reading on cognitive restructuring (psychotherapy)? It's interesting that people on this forum believe this is impossible when a method exists as a type of psychotherapy. Have you guys refuted cognitive restructuring or are you just unaware of it?
I'm aware of cognitive restructuring. Note that I haven't said that introspection is completely useless or even that the specific type of introspection you describe is totally impossible, just that you are very confident about it and there's a common pattern of extreme overconfidence.
This type of hypothetical questioning is notoriously unreliable, people ofter come up with answers that don't reflect their actual reactions, If you read closely Yvain's article already gives several examples. It's also one of the methodologies that my psychology teachers highlighted as sounding good, but being largely unreliable.
This is better, but between the general unreliability of memory and the number other factors that would need to be controlled for its still not that great. Particularly since you do feel attracted to men who are more dominate as debaters.
It occurs to me that since this debate is about me and my subjective experiences, there's really no way for either of us to win. Even if we got a whole bunch of people with different incomes and did an experiment on me to see which ones I was more attracted to, the result of the experiment would be subjective and there would be no way for anyone to know I wasn't pretending.
I still think that there are ways to know what's going on inside you with relatively good certainty. Part of the reason I believe this is because I'm able to change myself, meaning that I am able to decide to feel a different way and accomplish that. I don't mean to say I can decide to experience pleasure instead of pain if I bang my toe, but that I am able to dig around in the belief system behind my feelings, figure out what ideas are in there, improve the ideas, and translate that change over to the emotional part of me so that I react to the new ideas emotionally. If I was wrong about my motivations, this would not work, so the fact that I can do this supports the idea that I'm able to figure out what I'm thinking with a pretty high degree of accuracy. I would like to write an article about how I do this at some point because it's been a really useful skill for me, and I want to share. But right now I've got a lot on my plate. I think it's best for us to discontinue this debate about whether or not my subjective experiences match my perceptions or your expectations, and if you want to tear apart my writings on how I change myself later, you can.
Your links are bookmarked, so if your purpose was to make sure I was aware of them, I've got them. Thanks.
Thanks for those links by the way, they are interesting.