Eugine_Nier comments on Debugging the Quantum Physics Sequence - Less Wrong

32 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 05 September 2012 03:55PM

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Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 06 September 2012 04:16:53PM -1 points [-]

Proponents of the TI (and the PTI) explicitly say that one advantage of their interpretation over the MWI is that it is a one-world theory

Even the PTI? With the given description, that's really really weird.

Simply saying, "Well, in MWI observers will see all sorts of different frequencies in experimental results, including Born-rule compliant ones" doesn't tell us why observers should expect to see Born-rule compliant frequencies in a QM-governed world.

Not ALL sorts of frequencies. Many - most - ways of looking at the wavefunction won't reveal causal structures isomorphic to observers. For instance, you can consider the wavefunction in the energy basis and interpret it as an infinite number of wheels of various sizes, spinning at different constant speeds. No observers are apparent when viewed this way.

I suspect that the Born Rule is the only rule that leads to observers, but we don't need to prove that it's the only one, and I'm open to the possibility that there are others. GAZP again - if it's in there, it's in there, whether or not you're aware of it.

And if you don't have a story about that, then I don't see how you can claim that the observed frequencies confirm QM (and by extension MWI).

I think you'll agree that the observed frequencies confirm the conjunction of Schrodinger's Equation with the Born Rule. The question at hand is whether the Born Rule needs to be a rule of the universe. Whether collapse is ontologically real or based solely on our parochial viewpoint as observers.

Suppose it is real. That's nice. We get everything we see.

Suppose it isn't, and collapse isn't a real thing. The wavefunction is just doing its thing, and that's all there is. The causal structures in the wavefunction that correspond to people are still there.

The way of looking at us that brings us into focus is the Born Rule. Removing the Born Rule is just like removing a P-zombie's consciousness. It's that switch you flip to grant or remove subjective experience from a computation that implements consciousness.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 07 September 2012 03:06:28AM 1 point [-]

Suppose it isn't, and collapse isn't a real thing. The wavefunction is just doing its thing, and that's all there is. The causal structures in the wavefunction that correspond to people are still there.

Following that logic why not go even further and remove Schrodinger's Equation? All possible observer moments exist, we just happen to be observers whose history happens to correspond to the conjunction of Schrodinger's Equation with the Born Rule.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 07 September 2012 02:42:20PM 0 points [-]

That notion doesn't bother me in the least, but if we're talking about the physics that happen for us, it's the Schrodinger Equation, and the Born Rule is the 'angle' to take on finding us in it. Anything else isn't us, and we can't do experiments on it, so we ought to avoid making strong claims.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 08 September 2012 01:36:20AM 0 points [-]

Then I don't understand on what grounds you reject the Born Rule but keep the Schrodinger Equation.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 08 September 2012 03:15:35AM *  0 points [-]

Because the Schrodinger Equation governs the absolute dynamics.

Let me draw an analogy to what things would be like if the world weren't quantum.

Schrodinger Equation + form of the Hamiltonian : Born Rule + neuroscience

::

Newton's 2nd Law + force rules : "Some of those masses are what we're made of.." + neuroscience

Comment author: Alejandro1 07 September 2012 04:53:07AM 0 points [-]

Isn't this sort of like the Tegmark multiverse?