V_V comments on Jews and Nazis: a version of dust specks vs torture - Less Wrong

16 Post author: shminux 07 September 2012 08:15PM

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Comment author: Irgy 08 September 2012 01:43:08AM 1 point [-]

First, I'm going to call them 'N' and 'J', because I just don't like the idea of this comment being taken out of context and appearing to refer to the real things.

Does there exist a relative proportion of N to J where extermination is superior to the status quo, under your assumptions? In theory yes. In reality, it's so big that you run into a number of practical problems first. I'm going to run through as many places where this falls down in practice as I can, even if others have mentioned some.

  • The assumption that if you leave J fixed and increase N, that the level of annoyance per person in N stays constant. Exactly how annoyed can you be by someone you've never even met? Once N becomes large enough, you haven't met one, your friends haven't met one, no one you know has met one, and how do you really know whether they actually exist or not? As the size of N increases, in practice the average cost of J decreases, and it could well hit a bound. You could probably construct things in a way where that wouldn't happen, but it's at least not a straightforward matter of just blindly increasing N.
  • It's a false dichotomy. Even given the assumptions you state, there's all manner of other solutions to the problem than extermination. The existance and likely superiority of these solutions is part of our dislike of the proposal.
  • The assumption that they're unable to change their opinion is unrealistic.
  • The assumption that they hate one particular group but don't then just go on to hate another group when the first one is gone is unrealistic.
  • The whole analogy is horribly misleading because of all the associations that it brings in. Pretty much all of the assumptions required to make the theoretical situation your constructing actually work do not hold for the example you give.

With this much disparity between the theoretical situation and reality, it's no surprise there's an emotional conflict.

Comment author: V_V 08 September 2012 08:54:24AM *  0 points [-]

Does there exist a relative proportion of N to J where extermination is superior to the status quo, under your assumptions? In theory yes. In reality, it's so big that you run into a number of practical problems first.

Real Ns would disagree.

They did realize that killing Js wasn't exactly a nice thing to do. At first they considered relocating Js to some remote land (Madagascar, etc.). When it became apparent thar relocating millions while fighting a world war wasn't feasible and they resolved to killing them, they had to invent death camps rather than just shooting them because even the SS had problems doing that.

Nevertheless, they had to free the Lebensraum to build the Empire that would Last for a Thousand Years, and if these Js were in the way, well, too bad for them.

Ends before the means: utilitarianism at work.

Comment author: Irgy 08 September 2012 10:40:24AM 4 points [-]

I don't see why utilitarianism should be held accountable for the actions of people who didn't even particulalry subscribe to it.

Also, why are you using N and J to talk about actual Nazis and Jews? That partly defeats the purpose of my making the distinction.

Comment author: V_V 08 September 2012 06:32:56PM 0 points [-]

I don't see why utilitarianism should be held accountable for the actions of people who didn't even particulalry subscribe to it.

They may have not framed the issue explicitely in terms of maximization of an aggregate utility function, but their behavior seems consistent with consequentialist moral reasoning.

Comment author: Irgy 08 September 2012 09:48:24PM *  1 point [-]

Reversed stupidity is not intelligence. That utilitarianism is dangerous in the hands of someone with a poor value function is old news. The reasons why utilitarianism may be correct or not exist in an entirely unrelated argument space.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 08 September 2012 09:59:57PM 3 points [-]

I can't even find the "help" section in this place

click the "Show help" button below the comment box

Comment author: Irgy 08 September 2012 10:21:57PM 1 point [-]

Ugh so obvious, except I only looked for the help in between making edits, looking for a global thing rather than the (more useful most of the time) local thing.

Thanks!

Comment author: prase 08 September 2012 10:20:55AM 1 point [-]

Real Ns would disagree.

Why is that relevant? Real Ns weren't good rationalists after all. If the existence of Js really made them suffer (which it most probably didn't under any reasonable definition of "suffer") but they realised that killing Js has negative utility, there were still plenty of superior solutions, e.g.: (1) relocating the Js afer the war (they really didn't stand in the way), (2) giving all or most Js a new identity (you don't recognise a J without digging into birth certificates or something; destroying these records and creating strong incentives for the Js to be silent about their origin would work fine), (3) simply stopping the anti-J propaganda which was the leading cause of hatred while being often pursued for reasons unrelated to Js, mostly to foster citizens loyalty to the party by creating an image of an evil enemy.

Of course Ns could have beliefs, and probably a lot of them had beliefs, which somehow excluded these solutions from consideration and therefore justified what they actually did on utilitarian grounds. (Although probably only a minority of Ns were utilitarians). But the original post wasn't pointing out that utilitarianism could fail horribly when combined with false beliefs and biases. It was rather about the repugnant consequences of scope sensitivity and unbounded utility, even when no false beliefs are involved.

Comment author: DanArmak 08 September 2012 01:24:07PM 0 points [-]

which it most probably didn't under any reasonable definition of "suffer"

What definition is that?

Comment author: prase 08 September 2012 03:04:45PM 1 point [-]

That clause was meant to exclude the possibility of claiming suffering whenever one's preferences aren't satisfied. As I have written 'any reasonable', I didn't have one specific definition in mind.