prase comments on Jews and Nazis: a version of dust specks vs torture - Less Wrong

16 Post author: shminux 07 September 2012 08:15PM

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Comment author: V_V 08 September 2012 08:54:24AM *  0 points [-]

Does there exist a relative proportion of N to J where extermination is superior to the status quo, under your assumptions? In theory yes. In reality, it's so big that you run into a number of practical problems first.

Real Ns would disagree.

They did realize that killing Js wasn't exactly a nice thing to do. At first they considered relocating Js to some remote land (Madagascar, etc.). When it became apparent thar relocating millions while fighting a world war wasn't feasible and they resolved to killing them, they had to invent death camps rather than just shooting them because even the SS had problems doing that.

Nevertheless, they had to free the Lebensraum to build the Empire that would Last for a Thousand Years, and if these Js were in the way, well, too bad for them.

Ends before the means: utilitarianism at work.

Comment author: prase 08 September 2012 10:20:55AM 1 point [-]

Real Ns would disagree.

Why is that relevant? Real Ns weren't good rationalists after all. If the existence of Js really made them suffer (which it most probably didn't under any reasonable definition of "suffer") but they realised that killing Js has negative utility, there were still plenty of superior solutions, e.g.: (1) relocating the Js afer the war (they really didn't stand in the way), (2) giving all or most Js a new identity (you don't recognise a J without digging into birth certificates or something; destroying these records and creating strong incentives for the Js to be silent about their origin would work fine), (3) simply stopping the anti-J propaganda which was the leading cause of hatred while being often pursued for reasons unrelated to Js, mostly to foster citizens loyalty to the party by creating an image of an evil enemy.

Of course Ns could have beliefs, and probably a lot of them had beliefs, which somehow excluded these solutions from consideration and therefore justified what they actually did on utilitarian grounds. (Although probably only a minority of Ns were utilitarians). But the original post wasn't pointing out that utilitarianism could fail horribly when combined with false beliefs and biases. It was rather about the repugnant consequences of scope sensitivity and unbounded utility, even when no false beliefs are involved.

Comment author: DanArmak 08 September 2012 01:24:07PM 0 points [-]

which it most probably didn't under any reasonable definition of "suffer"

What definition is that?

Comment author: prase 08 September 2012 03:04:45PM 1 point [-]

That clause was meant to exclude the possibility of claiming suffering whenever one's preferences aren't satisfied. As I have written 'any reasonable', I didn't have one specific definition in mind.