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Alicorn comments on Call for Anonymous Narratives by LW Women and Question Proposals (AMA) - Less Wrong
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Comments (364)
I upvoted this post because it does a good job at presenting your perspective as a woman in such interactions.
However, I don't think it displays a lot of empathy or understanding for the other perspective. I'm not necessarily concluding that you lack such empathy or understanding, but I don't see it in this post. For example, this sentence:
This is not a very good model of nerdy guys who come on too strong. From their perspective, you (as a woman in a largely-male group) have many more romantic prospects than they do. They can't afford to wait and take things slow, because there's always someone else who is more assertive or has better timing. It's a scenario they've personally observed over and over again. Now, obviously it's detrimental for every guy in this situation to reason this way, as you remark:
It's actually a very good example of the tragedy of the commons. Individually, going after every woman they meet seems like it should improve their chances; collectively, it ends up driving women away and reducing everyone's chances. We would expect rationalist/skeptic/etc. guys to figure this out, but they often don't. Why is this?
Try to imagine being completely romantically alone, through no choice of your own. Imagine this not over the course of weeks or months, but years or even decades. Not one date, not one kiss, hardly even any fun, flirty conversations with interesting, attractive people. This is the stark reality for many nerdy guys, and they often feel powerless to change it.
So, yes, oozing desperation is not a good romantic strategy, but it's not just due to simple social ineptitude or inexperience. While the nerdy guys are trying to keep in mind how women feel when they're constantly pursued (and this is something at which many of us can improve), women should please keep in mind just how lonely and desperate it can feel on the other side.
What is it that you would like us to do with this information?
Probably feel good about never having to be in this exact situation? I doubt that he implies that he deserves a pity lay. He can probably afford to pay for a professional escort once in a while, one of the solutions advocated by Dan Savage.
Incorporate it into your models of such guys. I think this can help moderate problems such as being "easily spooked" and "cutting it short to prevent dysfunction." Instead of thinking that this guy is just too clingy/creepy/codependent/etc., dig a little deeper. If the flirtation or relationship just isn't going to work, then so be it, but we can at least strive to leave things a little nicer than how we found them. If I, as a guy, try to give other guys advice in these matters, it just seems like I'm trying to create a competitive advantage for myself.
I am trying to promote mutual understanding so that communication between the genders works better. I never have and likely never will experience being in such high romantic demand, so I have no visceral feeling for how women feel in that situation. The best I can do is to keep in mind what I've been told by women whenever such a conversation occurs. On the flip side, most women in rationalist/skeptic/etc. groups have never experienced such prolonged romantic isolation. If we want to increase group conscientiousness of issues which can drive women away, understanding needs to flow both ways.
I could pause before attaching labels, but I don't think arbitrary guys who I don't enjoy interactions with ought to get particularly much attention in the form of "digging"; that doesn't make sense to me.
In the context of Epiphany's post, these aren't arbitrary guys:
If you read it in context, that means:
"the ones who do seem compatible have problems like the above"
You can be dysfunctional and incompatible, which is a fail. Or you can be functional and incompatible, also a fail. Or you can be compatible and dysfunctional, still a fail.
The only thing that's not a definite fail is compatible + functional.
I don't think I would enjoy a prolonged period of having to manage someone's desperation on the expectation that there is an otherwise functional guy under all of it. Plenty of guys come functional out of the package, so the opportunity cost of a lot of dysfunction-fussing-with is high. But your advice could be good for people who like fixer-uppers; it's probably safer and more productive than trying to tame a sociopath or something.
Well, this conversation has managed to go right around in a circle:
Also, turning "dig a little deeper" into "a prolonged period" seems uncharitable.
Well, yes. I do in fact have many more romantic prospects than a bunch of the guys I know. Should I act like that is false?
Prolonged beyond what is enjoyable, or required for me to achieve a comfortable level of confidence that it's not going to become enjoyable soon.
It would be lovely if you'd point that kind of thing out to the nerdy guy. One problem with being a nerdy guy is that a lack of romantic experience creates a positive feedback loop.
So yeah, it's great to point out what mistakes the guy made. See Epiphany's comment here.
(I have no doubt that you personally would do this, I'm just pointing this out for future reference. You might not remember, but I've actually talked to you about this positive feedback loop over IM before. I complimented you for doing something which would go towards breaking the cycle.)