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Epiphany comments on Elitism isn't necessary for refining rationality. - Less Wrong

-20 Post author: Epiphany 10 September 2012 05:41AM

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Comment author: Epiphany comment score below threshold [+] (8 children)

Comment author: Epiphany 20 September 2012 05:54:53AM * -8 points [-]

Elitism Poll:

Note: The poll currently doesn't display results correctly, but I assume they'll fix it. If not, the CSV file does have the results, so I will total it once in a while.

You may PM me your responses to be posted anonymously if you wish to elaborate on your answers. Your critiques would be preferred to silent downvotes.

I should make a new elitism poll with better wording.

See also: Kindly's critique. Please critique the poll further if desired.

Yes.
No.

Are you an "elitist", and, if so, how do you use the word?

I believe I'm better than most other people and that it means at least one of the following: I am entitled to special treatment from others (e.g.: deference to my opinions). I should be allowed exceptions to the rules (e.g.: verbally abusing people I do not consider "elite"). The elite should rule the rest (e.g.: replace democracies/republics with elitist ruler(s)).
I may use the word "elitist" to refer to myself but I don't believe being "elite" entitles me to special treatment, means I should be allowed exceptions to rules or that the elitists should take over.
I do not use the word "elitist" to refer to myself.
Other (Please elaborate.)

How do you think most people perceive groups that describe themselves as "elitists"?

It's likely to make a bad impression on most people regardless of how it is presented.
There is a way of presenting it that's likely to be accepted by most people.
It's unlikely to make a bad impression on most people regardless of how it is presented.
Other (Please elaborate.)

Do you feel inhibited about participating in a group that is described as as "elitist"?

I will participate fully, but only if I can be anonymous.
I will participate partially.
I will consider quitting or not participating in the first place.
I will participate fully, without anonymity but I hope certain people don't find out.
I will participate fully, without anonymity and I don't care who knows it.
Other (Please elaborate.)

Hypothetically speaking: if LessWrong had a method that you thought was good to ensure you can still experience flow* in discussions while also maintaining quality on the blog, would you welcome beginners who are interested in becoming more rational and refrain from using the word "elitist" to describe LessWrong?

Yes
No
Other (Please elaborate.)

*Flow: Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, author of Flow the psychology of optimal experience explains that flow is an enjoyable state of mind you enter when what you're doing is neither too hard or too easy. He regards it as an important key to happiness. Because people's ability levels differ, not everyone can experience flow doing the same tasks. In conversations with beginners, it can be too frustrating to try to explain your points, and sometimes the kinds of conversations they want to have are not challenging enough, so I think that may be a core issue here.

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Comment author: Unnamed 20 September 2012 06:47:38PM 1 point [+] (1 child)

Comment author: Unnamed 20 September 2012 06:47:38PM 1 point [-]

Do not make another elitism poll. You are continuing an unproductive discussion.

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Comment author: Epiphany 23 September 2012 08:29:28PM * -1 points [+] (0 children)

Comment author: Epiphany 23 September 2012 08:29:28PM * -1 points [-]

What do you think would make the discussion productive?

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Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 24 September 2012 11:19:52AM 4 points [+] (2 children)

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 24 September 2012 11:19:52AM 4 points [-]

Why on earth would people who think elitism can be a good thing always automatically think they themselves are elites?

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Comment author: Epiphany 24 September 2012 05:59:39PM -1 points [+] (1 child)

Comment author: Epiphany 24 September 2012 05:59:39PM -1 points [-]

I think you're critiquing the question about participating in a group that is described as "elite" and what you're saying is basically that some people who identify as non-elitist may choose not to participate because they feel intimidated / don't fit in or similar, and this will generate irrelevant results because my question intends to find out whether they are put off by it because they have some moral disagreement with it or feel that it makes a bad impression socially. Do I interpret this right?

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Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 24 September 2012 07:38:39PM 3 points [+] (0 children)

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 24 September 2012 07:38:39PM 3 points [-]

No. The problem is that you gave the elitist nothing but lines where they think they themselves are the elite, giving no option but an uncharitable self-serving justification for why someone would be elitist. People who don't think elitism is something the evil mutant enemies do might, for example, just think that there's nothing wrong with paying much more attention to people with a history of displaying a very high level of skill and achievement, even though they don't think they are much anything like such people themselves, and hence think themselves as elitist.

When you try to engage with people who actually hold an opinion and give them a poll that only has uncharitable justifications for the opinion, you end up with a downvoted poll.

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Comment author: Epiphany 24 September 2012 12:18:20AM * -1 points [+] (0 children)

Comment author: Epiphany 24 September 2012 12:18:20AM * -1 points [-]

Poll Responses at 19 votes:

Are you an "elitist", and, if so, how do you use the word? (poll id 32)

3 (16%) - Yes, better than / entitled to special treatment or exceptions to rules.
4 (21%) - Yes, but not by the first definition.
11 (58%) - No.
1 (5%) - Other.

"Elitists": 37%

Non-"Elitists": 58%

How do you think most people perceive groups that describe themselves as "elitists"? (poll id 33)

11 (58%) - Likely to make a bad impression regardless of presentation.
6 (32%) - There is a way of presenting it.
1 (5%) - It's unlikely to make a bad impression regardless.
1 (5%) - Other.

Do you feel inhibited about participating in a group that is described as as "elitist"? (poll id 36)

5 (26%) - I will participate fully, but only if I can be anonymous.
1 (5%) - I will participate partially.
4 (21%) - I will consider quitting or not participating in the first place.
0 (0%) - I will participate fully, without anonymity but I hope certain people don't find out.
8 (42%) - I will participate fully, without anonymity and I don't care who knows it.
1 (5%) - Other.

Inhibited: 26% - 52% (Some of these may prefer anonymous posting regardless.)

Uninhibited: 42%

If LessWrong had a method that you thought was good to ensure you can still experience flow* in discussions while also maintaining quality on the blog, would you welcome beginners who are interested in becoming more rational and refrain from using the word "elitist" to describe LessWrong? (poll id 35)

15 (79%) - Yes.
2 (11%) - No.
2 (11%) - Other.

Conclusion:

Most people taking the poll don't identify as "elitists" and think it is likely to make a bad impression to call ourselves "elitists". About 21% of people feel strongly enough about this that they would consider quitting or not joining in the first place. Up to 52% feel inhibited about participating in a group that is described as "elitist". An overwhelming majority (79%) would welcome beginners to the site and refrain from using the word elitist to describe the site if there were a good way to ensure that they still experience flow in discussions and maintain quality on the blog (or some combination of those).

See Also:

Kindly's criticism of my poll.

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Comment author: Kindly 20 September 2012 01:55:49PM * 6 points [+] (1 child)

Comment author: Kindly 20 September 2012 01:55:49PM * 6 points [-]

These polls are poorly posed for the following reasons:

The first poll simultaneously asks "Do you think you are better than other people?" and "How do you use the word "elitist"?" and the result is confused voting.
The first option of the first poll is too emotionally charged and conflates too many different responses. People that technically agree with it might be uncomfortable with choosing it.
The third poll ignores the base rate. I, for one, would not participate in an online group non-anonymously, and therefore the same is true for a group described as "elitist". The poll options should be stated like "I will be less likely to participate than otherwise" or "It will be more important for me to be anonymous than otherwise" (that's poor wording but it gets the point across).
Possibly, the "participation" and "anonymity" parts of the third poll should also be split up, or more combinations of these should be allowed.
The final poll asks two questions, to which the answers may well be different, and allows only one response.
The question of the final poll is too complicated, and as a result people who disagree entirely may end up giving the same answer, making the results meaningless.

All of these questions have an "Other (Please elaborate.)" option, which is good, but it doesn't really save bad polls: if too many people are forced to the "Other" option because of problems with the question, the results of the poll are meaningless and misleading, and you have no way of comparing the reasons for choosing "Other".

P.S. Due to the poll resetting bug, I'm going to post a raw data summary here for convenience (as of 10 total votes); the votes are split 1:3:6:0 for the first question, 3:5:1:1 for the second, 2:1:2:0:4:1 for the third, 8:1:1 for the fourth.