Patrick comments on Elitism isn't necessary for refining rationality. - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (91)
Okay. That's a good point. Though I'd like to ask you to take a moment to understand where I'm coming from:
I find LessWrong, and go "A clearing of sanity in this jungle of irrationality? Great!" I see that the clearing of sanity wants to improve it's website in John's proposed rewrites thread. (I thought he had been chosen to do this task but evidently, he just up and started a thread.)
As a web professional who knows things about web marketing, I could see that if LW wants to grow, they're doing it wrong. I say so in John's thread. This doesn't get anywhere, so I make a chart, and I post about it.
This becomes one of the top 30 discussions of all time. I volunteer to help LessWrong grow, and I'm given access to the LessWrong Google Analytics account.
A bunch of people commented with concerns about how growth could destroy the culture in the discussions, including a link to the wiki on the Eternal September phenomenon.
I discovered a comment that I found upsetting about "keeping out the intellectual riff-raff" and told Luke about it. I mention in an email that "my ethics do not allow me to do work for an organization that allows elitism." I assumed he did not want LessWrong to have a reputation for "elitism" (regardless of how it's defined internally, the external world will most likely think it looks bad) so I figured he'd do something about it.
Now I'm in a pickle. I do not want to destroy the nice clearing of sanity by deluging it in newbies, but I have volunteered to help it grow. Being a responsible person, I can neither forget the volunteer offer or just risk destroying the culture without even thinking it through. Instead of giving up, I think of solutions to the problem and invite the group to criticize these and share their wisdom with me in my Preventing "endless September" discussion.
Luke says he's not very worried about endless September even though Eliezer is definitely worried about discussion quality and a whole bunch of people posted concerns, but he invites me to discuss it because he might change his mind.
My concerns are complex and they won't fit in a comment, and people had been interested in criticizing my ideas so far, so I make a new thread, a call for agreement. Bad idea if you go by the popularity of that, but I've noted to self that people prefer to have few to no meta threads and hopefully, my original reasons are understandable.
A bunch more people express that they're in favor of "elitism" most notably in a comment with over 20 upvotes: "LessWrong is elitist:" ... "I wish LessWrong was more elitist!". Though it's still not clear what they mean, I find the amount of "elitism" talk to be rather alarming, because calling one's self or group "elitist" makes a very bad impression, even if you guys are all wonderful people. But for all I know, the 20+ people that upvoted that comment interpreted it in the worst possible sense of the word and really did mean to express that they're jerks, and may have not even stopped to consider whether the original commenter didn't mean it that way before pressing the upvote button.
At this point, two new obstacles to me helping LessWrong grow appear: One, helping LessWrong grow in order to be seen as "elitist" by the world will only smear their public reputation. This would hurt the site and make the parent organization look bad. Two, if LessWrong really is "elitist" in the nasty sense of the word, I have to refuse to help them for ethical reasons.
The people here are describing themselves and each other in public as "elitist". But some of them use their real names on the forum. This is the internet where what you say might last forever. Yet here they are smearing themselves and each other, the LessWrong website, and the Singularity Institute (by association), as "elitist".
Nobody seems to think that this is a bad idea but me. The clearing of sanity in a jungle has begun to look too much like the jungle itself to me. At this point, it's either try to explain it to them or revoke my offer to volunteer and leave the site. I figure "These guys care about rationality, right? How hard can it be? I'll explain my view and we'll probably come to a nice sensible agreement of some kind."
That attempt (this thread) didn't go over too well, for reasons that still aren't completely clear to me due to the large number of completely different criticisms. Few have responded to the topic itself, so I don't really know whether people agree or disagree. Some people think they speak for the group, but I have never seen that work out on LessWrong - so far, those I've seen speaking for the group have been verifiably incorrect. So I made a poll. Where I am at right now is that even though some (Schminux, Mitchell_Porter) seem to think I have potential to be a good writer here, I am so terribly put off by the way people are smearing themselves as elitists that if it doesn't get resolved somehow, I'm more likely to throw up than ever write you guys an article.
I either have to try to resolve my concerns about the "elitism" talk, or go do something better with my time than stay here being smeared as an "elitist" with the rest of you.
If anyone can suggest a resolution to this problem, I'm more than willing to hear it.
The word "elitist" has political connotations. It is often used in right wing political discourse as a slur against liberals. For example the phrase "intellectual elite" is used a great deal in this article defending Sarah Palin. Some of these upvotes may be made by people who interpret "do you think elitism is bad" as asking "Do you hate university professors and would you vote for Sarah Palin?"
Thank you for pointing this out. I don't bother with politics, (I quit being interested a long time ago when I realized that nothing was being solved and no one was looking for solutions that would get to the root of the problem because they seemed to prefer squabbling) so I didn't know that.
I see now that it's something I really need to learn more about if I want to understand elitism better. And I do. Would you mind explaining more or, if you know of good reading materials, direct me?
I think it's more useful to first better understand the reasons for wanting to understand "elitism" better. (I expect you are wrong in believing that it's a project worth working on.)
On the political use, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_elite
I bring up the political connotations because I don't think Less Wrong is particularly snobbish or exclusionary, and I think there are more flattering reasons why someone might choose to label themselves as "elitist".
Personally, I think the word "elitist" is too politically charged and emotionally laden to be of much use. There are a few different questions that the word lumps in together, I outline them below and my opinion of them.
Question 1. Should this site be hostile towards new members? (No)
Question 2. Should this site praise intelligence and rationality? (Yes)
Question 3. What privileges should those regarded as particularly rational receive? (No formal privileges)
Question 4. How concerned should we be with trying to preserve the current culture? (Somewhat, but not to the extent of making people feel small)
It's interesting that "elitist" doesn't strike me as being politically charged - I would even be hard-pressed to tell whether it seems more left-wing or right-wing (if it wasn't for your comment, I'd tend to call it slightly right-wing).
Maybe it's because elitism vs. anti-intellectualism isn't as much of a hot political issue here in France; maybe French people (or French politicians?) are less hung-up about seeming elitist than people in lesser countries.
This article seems to indicate a clear cultural difference between at least France and the US on the issue of elitism.
Wow that's interesting. Thank you for the article. Do the French find it horrible when intelligent people end up on the wrong educational tier? What is thought about those who are unhappy because they're brighter than their tier allows them to be?
Eh, I don't know enough to answer you with much confidence on that, sorry.
There are some significant differences between the French and American educational sytems: we have the bac, a national standardized exam everybody takes at the end of high school, and getting a good grade at that can open a lot of doors, so is often a "way out" for a smart kid in a bad environment. Also, there are many good colleges with nearly free education, so French students typically graduate with waaay less debt than American ones, and you don't often hear of people who cut their education short because they were poor. Socialism: it works, bitches :D (disclaimer: I don't identify as a socialist and don't want to start a flame war, I just like poking fun at Americans).
Also, from what I've heard of Americans, I got the impression that smart kids would feel "held back" because the system cared more about not preventing the dumb kids from being left behind than about stimulating the smart kids, resulting in some smart kids getting bored out of their minds. I think that's less of a concern in France, it seems to be more of an American thing.
Overall I have a pretty low opinion of the American system, and concerns about my kid's education is one reason why I am reticent to move to the US (despite all the things that the US does better than France). And I get the impression that concerns of "elitism" may be partly behind the low quality of the American system.
But then, I haven't researched the topic in much depth (prior to this conversation, I wasn't aware that "elitism" sounded all that bad to Americans); it would be interesting to look at the British system, that is probably a bit closer to the French system than to the American one. The Chinese system is probably even more extreme than the French one, and Chinese people coming to France have a bit of the same reaction that I have when hearing about the American system - those people are crazy and lazy!