Epiphany comments on How about testing our ideas? - Less Wrong

31 [deleted] 14 September 2012 10:28AM

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Comment author: Epiphany 23 September 2012 04:41:19AM *  8 points [-]

John Taylor Gatto won the New York State teacher of the year award in 1991 (New York state's education website). His ambition to be a great teacher led him to the realization that the system itself is broken and he was so disgusted with it that he resigned. The claims that John Taylor Gatto makes are much worse than that they're defaulting to the teacher's password. You have no idea. Consider this: You obviously value rational thought. Learning about things like logical fallacies and biases is a no-brainer to you, right? Why are so many people learning them here, at LessWrong, for the first time? From what I know of American public schools, most of them don't teach these. What could cause our school systems to teach us square dancing and rote memorization of thousands of spellings of words for the sake of polish, but leave out basic pieces required for rational thought? Ask yourself this:

If you were making the curriculum, and you knew the kids would be turned lose into the world complete with the right to vote at 18 would you find any excuse good enough to let them out with no familiarity of logical fallacies, biases, etc.?

If your answer to this is "no" you already know that something is wrong.

I have a radar for conspiracy theories too, but what he explains in The Seven Lesson School Teacher (in the first chapter of his book "Dumbing us Down") got past my conspiracy theory radar and made it to "oh crap". If you want to fast forward past the pretty obvious stuff, start at #3 in that link, and if you want to begin with "oh crap" start with #4.

I have no idea if his claim that the American school system was based on the Prussian school system in order to create obedient soldiers is correct, or whether seeing the effects of schooling as intentional is just a matter of seeing agency where there is none due to bias. However, the problems he describes are worth consideration. That, I'm sure of.

Comment author: Nornagest 23 September 2012 07:58:45PM *  3 points [-]

I have no idea if his Prussian school system claim is right, or whether the idea that this was all intentional is just a matter of seeing agency where there is none due to bias.

It's at least partly right, but strikes me as weak evidence. Horace Mann and several of his contemporaries admired the Prussian system and introduced reforms to American schooling based on it -- but he probably wasn't trying to foster exactly the same features that later commentators have objected to. There have also been several major changes to American public schooling since then, many of them divergent with the development of the Prussian (and, later, German) school system.

It's plausible to me that the American school system functionally prioritizes inculcating obedience to authority, whether it was designed that way or fell into that arrangement through a process of evolution. But that's a claim that's got to stand or fall on an analysis of the system as it currently exists, not of its remote origins.