pragmatist comments on [Poll] Less Wrong and Mainstream Philosophy: How Different are We? - Less Wrong

38 Post author: Jayson_Virissimo 26 September 2012 12:25PM

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Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:55:10AM 4 points [-]

Disjunctivism: In normal cases, when a person is perceiving something, the object of their perception is a mind-independent object. The character of the person's phenomenal experience is explained by the properties of the object (for instance, a person perceiving an apple has an experience of redness because the object of their perception -- the apple -- is red). However, when a person is hallucinating or experiencing an illusion, the object of their perception is some sort of mind-dependent entity (perhaps sense-data; see below). So hallucination and veridical perception are substantially different kinds of mental processes.

Representationalism: Perceptual experience is representational. It represents our immediate environment as being a certain way. Since representations can be both accurate and inaccurate, we can understand both veridical perception and hallucination as the same kind of process. The difference is merely in the success of the representation. To be perceiving is to be representing one's immediate environment in certain ways (visually, aurally, etc.), and perception is accurate to the extent that this representation corresponds to reality.

Sense-datum theory: The objects of our perception are not mind-independent entities, they are mind-dependent objects called sense-data. These are objects like "a red spot at such-and-such position in my visual field". We infer the existence of mind-independent objects from patterns in the sense-data we perceive.

Qualia theory: [I don't think I fully understand the claims of qualia theory. I have tried to describe the kinds of things qualia theorists say, but if it appears confused that's because I am confused.] The phenomenal character of our perceptual experience (the particular way our experience feels) is non-representational. We don't infer information about the external world from the particular feel of our conscious experience; rather, our conscious experience is simply what it feels like (from the inside) to be obtaining sensory information about our environment. One way to put is that my conscious experience doesn't tell me that the apple I'm perceiving is red. My conscious experience is just an effect of the particular way in which I am obtaining information about the apple; I am perceiving the apple red-ly.

Comment author: Swimmy 28 September 2012 07:43:48PM 3 points [-]

I wonder how many disjunctivists have actually taken hallucinatory drugs?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 07:15:44PM *  2 points [-]

Just to be clear: sense-datum theory is not asserting that distal stimuli don't exist or that we're unjustified in inferring their existence or otherwise making a claim about existence. It is merely asserting that we infer their existence from sense data, as opposed to, um.... doing something other than that. Yes?

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 07:33:57PM 1 point [-]

Yes, the claim is that mind-independent objects are not the direct objects of perception, sense-data are. In so far as perception gives us information about distal objects, that information is inferred from patterns in sense data.

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 12:55:46PM 0 points [-]

I think qualia theory is quite othogonal to (in)direct realism. Different qualia tbeorists hold qualia to be direct perceptions of external properties, or to be qualitites of sense data, or to be adverbial. Etc.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 01:09:23PM 0 points [-]

Then in what sense is it a distinct view about perception? Are the poll options just poorly formulated?

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 01:25:38PM 1 point [-]

Yes. Sense dataum theory barely differs from representationalism, direct relaism isn't mentioned, and qualia theory is orthogonal.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 01:30:02PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Sense datum theory is significantly different from representationalism, since sense data aren't supposed to intentional objects. Disjunctivism is the only form of direct realism anyone takes seriously any more, as far as I'm aware. You may be right about qualia theory, but I have heard people use the term as a stand-in for adverbialism. I suspect that's what it's supposed to represent in the poll.

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 02:35:54PM 0 points [-]

It looks like the list of options was cribbed from the The SEP article , but without much context.

Comment author: torekp 28 September 2012 11:59:40AM 0 points [-]

For someone who isn't confident of understanding qualia theory, you stated it quite well. Near the end it could use a tweak, I think: "my conscious experience in its entirety isn't essential to my knowing that the apple is red. The phenomenal quality of the experience is just an effect ..."

This leaves the verbal issue open, of whether perceived facts as well as phenomenal qualities count as part of "conscious experience".

Comment author: arborealhominid 01 March 2013 02:59:18AM 0 points [-]

I'm not totally clear on the distinction between representationalism and sense-datum theory. Do you think you could explain it in a bit more detail?

Comment author: diegocaleiro 04 October 2012 04:40:13AM *  -1 points [-]

I don't mean to be rude to the fellow, but my current understanding of why Chalmers (main Qualia theorist) says qualia are what he says they are is isomorphic to Lee Smolin's critique of string theorists. They become string theorists because of sociological reasons. It is the part of physics in which high intelligence is recompensated faster. Chalmers took a polarized view so that the rest of what he defends became visible. It worked fantastically well. http://lesswrong.com/lw/58d/how_not_to_be_a_na%C3%AFve_computationalist/

EDIT: in the link above I suggest a reading of the article "The Content and Epistemology of Phenomenal Belief" by Chalmers. It is the one in which this possible case is most easily visible. It is the case in which inconsistencies in the Chalmerian definition are most visible.