[Poll] Less Wrong and Mainstream Philosophy: How Different are We?

38 Post author: Jayson_Virissimo 26 September 2012 12:25PM

Despite being (IMO) a philosophy blog, many Less Wrongers tend to disparage mainstream philosophy and emphasize the divergence between our beliefs and theirs. But, how different are we really? My intention with this post is to quantify this difference.

The questions I will post as comments to this article are from the 2009 PhilPapers Survey. If you answer "other" on any of the questions, then please reply to that comment in order to elaborate your answer. Later, I'll post another article comparing the answers I obtain from Less Wrongers with those given by the professional philosophers. This should give us some indication about the differences in belief between Less Wrong and mainstream philosophy.

Glossary

analytic-synthetic distinction, A-theory and B-theory, atheism, compatibilism, consequentialism, contextualism, correspondence theory of truth, deontology, egalitarianism, empiricism, Humeanism, libertarianism, mental content externalism, moral realism, moral motivation internalism and externalism, naturalism, nominalism, Newcomb's problem, physicalism, Platonism, rationalism, relativism, scientific realism, trolley problem, theism, virtue ethics

Note

Thanks pragmatist, for attaching short (mostly accurate) descriptions of the philosophical positions under the poll comments.

Comments (627)

Comment author: RobbBB 25 February 2013 07:16:17AM *  2 points [-]

A few problems with this LW survey:

  1. Most of the interesting options in the original PhilPapers Survey are collapsed into 'Other'. This makes it needlessly tempting to side with one of the named positions in order to make one's answer usefully contentful. It also makes our comparisons to the original poll much cruder. The original survey provided (regularly used) options for: 'accept all', 'reject all', 'accept an intermediate view', 'accept an alternative', 'the question is too unclear to answer', 'there is no fact of the matter', 'insufficiently familiar with the issue', and 'agnostic/undecided'.

  2. The current format discourages changing your mind (e.g., it exacerbates consistency bias) because it disallows changing your old votes. A lot of these issues are difficult and require research and re-evaluation; rather than encouraging thoughtful and dynamic reasoning of this sort, our version of the poll seems to primarily encourage rushed and static (and often sloppily dismissive) judgments.

  3. Some of the original explanations of the options are a bit too incomplete or misleading. I'm not attacking the idea of adding explanations -- we aren't professional philosophers, and in any case our deeper goal should be to encourage more research into the more interesting of these topics, not just to acquire a static snapshot of our ideological commitments. But we should be more systematic about providing adequate explanations for every question, and we should rely mostly or entirely on quotations from authorities defining the relevant terms, so as to put as minimal a spin on the questions as possible.

  4. The specific questions seem to be based on an older, inferior version of the survey. "Language: Russelleanism or Fregeanism?" should be "Proper Names: Millian or Fregean?". Libertarian incompatibilism should be distinguished from the view that we simply don't have free will. The "personal identity" question should clarify "biological view" in lieu of "physical view", and add the "further-fact view" option. And the newer version also has "communitarianism" as an option alongside liberal egalitarianism and libertarianism (which is significant because, e.g., most Continental philosophers who answered the poll favored communitarianism). All of these changes are present in the main PhilPapers Survey.

In the interests of beginning to resolve all 4 issues, I've put together a hub of resources here, in a Google Doc for clarifying the meanings of the 30 questions. You can add questions, suggestions for changes and additions, and votes as Comments, and if there's enough interest I'll make another Doc (or something more structured) for hosting a revisable database of votes on these issues.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:58:41AM 3 points [-]

Zombies: inconceivable, conceivable but not metaphysically possible, or metaphysically possible?

Submitting...

Comment author: RobbBB 15 December 2012 04:22:50AM -1 points [-]

Went for "metaphysically possible". I think zombies exist, and we are they.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 September 2012 06:04:48AM 0 points [-]

Other: I wouldn't say it's inconceivable exactly, but I think the thought experiment, in framing the possibility of a decoupling of phenomenal experience from cognitive architecture, primes for some intuitions that don't make a lot of sense to me.

Comment author: drnickbone 27 September 2012 09:06:50PM *  0 points [-]

Went for "conceivable but not metaphysically possible".

It seems pretty clear to me that we can and do "conceive" of zombies, or of other puzzles like inverted spectra (you see red while I see green, but we're both looking at the same tree, and both call the tree "green"). However, this is because of a mental trick in the way we conceive mental states.

Basically, for normally-sighted people, it seems that when we imagine a physical object (like a tree), we imagine it from an external perspective. We induce in ourselves a mental state similar to the one we would get from looking at the object concerned (the tree). However, when we imagine a mental state itself (such as an experience of green), we do so sympathetically, or from an internal perspective, by inducing in ourselves the same or a similar mental state.

So this allows us to "mix and match" brain states and mental states. For instance, I can imagine your brain while you are looking at a tree (I have a mental picture of grey matter with lots of neurons firing) while at the same time imagining the mental state of experiencing red. No problem at all... it seems perfectly conceivable that these could happen together; instant inverted spectrum. Or I can imagine the same brain state (same grey matter, same firings) while not imagining a mental state at all (it's all neurons firing in complicated chains, but no-one's at home)... again seems perfectly conceivable that these could happen together; instant p-zombie.

But it's all just a dumb quirk of imagination. Because of the different imaginative techniques, we fool ourselves into conceiving apparent possibilities that aren't really possible after all. One way to debug the imagination is to ask ourselves this: "Suppose I were forced to imagine a mental state from the external perspective, the same way I imagine a tree. What would that look like?" And the short answer is "Well, without scientific evidence, I really don't have a clue. I have no intuition whatseover about what a mental state really looks like from the outside. Up to now, I've always imagined one from the inside. From the outside perspective, it might just as well be a brain state as a soul state or an ectoplasm state. So I'd best follow the science wherever it's pointing".

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:08:27AM 6 points [-]

A zombie is physically identical to a human being but does not possess phenomenal experience. There is nothing it is like to be a zombie.

Inconceivable: We cannot fully conceive of a zombie. If you think you have a coherent conception of a zombie, it is because you haven't thought about your conception carefully enough. Sufficient thought will reveal that your conception is incoherent.

Conceivable but not metaphysically possible: One can arrive at a coherent conception of zombies, but objects that match this conception cannot possibly exist, not even in worlds with different laws of nature than ours.

Metaphysically possible: The existence of zombies is possible.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 December 2012 12:06:24PM 1 point [-]

One can arrive at a coherent conception of zombies, but objects that match this conception cannot possibly exist, not even in worlds with different laws of nature than ours.

What is meant by “conception” exactly? Because that doesn't appear to make sense to me.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 08:18:29PM 2 points [-]

Given these options, I think I have to reluctantly choose "metaphysically possible."
A decent respect to the opinions of Less Wrong requires that I should declare the causes which impel me to this.

I have never been able to conceive of a zombie and a physically identical non-zombie without subsequently concluding that my conception leads to positing causeless effects (e.g., a zombie spontaneously talking about its nonexistent phenomenal experience while using all and only the cognitive structures that the non-zombie uses to talk about actual phenomenal experience).

But, well... causeless effects aren't incoherent, or metaphysically impossible, they're just vanishingly unlikely. . (Not even necessarily that. E.g., in a world where there are only a few possible utterances, one of which, X, is conventionally understood to be a reference to the speaker's phenomenal experience, it's not even all that unlikely for a zombie to just kind of coincidentally happen to utter X in exactly those circumstances that a non-zombie analog utters them due to phenomenal experience.)

Further, nothing in these definitions asserts that humans do have phenomenal experience, which allows for Dennett's answer ("We're all zombies.") In which case cause and effect aren't even at issue... all of us zombies just happen to talk about phenomenal experience despite not having any, because our brains are wired to do so, presumably for signalling reasons but possibly because the Matrix Lords think it's funny, or for other reasons.

This strikes me as implausible... I mean, it sure does seem to me that I have phenomenal experience, and I can't imagine being wrong about that. But that might just be a failure of my imagination.

Which seems to add up to "zombies are metaphysically possible" on this account.

I'm not quite sure.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 04:21:17AM *  3 points [-]

How did you answer the physicalism question? If you think any physical duplicate of our world must also be a mental duplicate then I think you're committed to the impossibility of zombies.

Think about it this way: Do you think there can be a world where the distribution of micro-physical properties is identical to ours but which does not have tables? Presumably no, because you believe that once microscopic properties are distributed a certain way in some location, you can't avoid having a table in that location. But you don't think the same is true of phenomenal experience if you believe zombies are possible. You think that there needs to be something more than just the right distribution of physical properties for consciousness to appear.

I suspect you're conflating epistemic and metaphysical possibility when you say causeless effects are vanishingly unlikely. Take the sentence "2 + 2 = 5". I think its metaphysically impossible for that to be true (assuming the meanings of the terms are kept constant) -- there is no possible world in which it is true -- but I don't assign it probability 0 because (as Eliezer has pointed out) I acknowledge that there is some possible sequence of experiences that might lead me to believe it (or increase my credence in it). Thinking something is impossible does not mean assigning it probability 0.

Dennett doesn't think we're all zombies, BTW. He's skeptical of qualia as a coherent concept, but he doesn't deny that we have phenomenal experience.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 28 September 2012 04:38:33AM *  2 points [-]

I don't believe mental events have nonphysical causes, which is precisely why I consider zombies to entail causeless effects.

And yeah, perhaps I'm just reading too much into "metaphysically impossible" as distinct from "impossible"; the truth is I really don't know how to think cogently about what would be impossible if the laws of nature were different.

The "we're all zombies" bit was intended with tongue in cheek; it's actually a direct quote of his from some book or another -- Consciousness Explained, probably -- that I read like 20 years ago and stuck with me. He isn't entirely serious when he says it, of course, and IIRC has a little footnote that says "To quote this phrase out of context would be the height of intellectual dishonesty." or words to that effect.

EDIT: That said, another relevant Dennetism that stuck with me was his response to an undergrad at a seminar I was listening in on years back. The undergrad said, in effect, "But I don't feel like a merely computational process!" and he replied "How do you know? Maybe this is exactly what a merely computational process feels like!"

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 08:46:14PM -1 points [-]

On reflection I agree.

"Metaphysically impossible" is a rather strong requirement if taken strictly, and I think strictly is the right way to take it when talking about metaphysical possibility.

So if you think there's a possible world where human actions just happen by chance to line up with some mysterious experiences and zombie actions don't, then it's metaphysically possible.

I'm not sure whether Dennett's answer should really be read as "zombies are metaphysically possible" but I'm now convinced this whole question is silly.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 08:49:16PM -1 points [-]

I'm now convinced this whole question is silly

Well, yes.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:56:54AM 3 points [-]

Truth: correspondence, deflationary, or epistemic?

Submitting...

Comment author: drnickbone 27 September 2012 09:30:46PM 0 points [-]

I think there might be a difference here between truth of a proposition and truth of a sentence.

Ascribing truth to a proposition looks the same as just asserting the proposition (deflationary account).

Ascribing truth to a sentence looks like a combination of mapping it onto a proposition (interpreting the sentence) and then asserting that proposition.

Since I would regard propositions and states of affairs as either the same, or isomorphic, this looks like the correspondence theory of truth for sentences.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:23:55AM 5 points [-]

Correspondence: A proposition is true if and only if it bears some sort of congruence relation to a state of affairs that obtains. When I say that "P is true", where P is some proposition, I am saying that P stands in this relation to some portion of reality.

Deflationary: Ascribing truth to a proposition amounts to no more than asserting the proposition. It does not mean you are attributing some further property to the proposition (such as congruence with some state of affairs). Saying "P is true" is the same as just saying "P'.

Epistemic: To say that a proposition is true is just to say that it meets a high standard of epistemic warrant, and that we are thereby justified in asserting it. The search for truth and the search for justification are not separate goals. There is no more to truth than sufficiently powerful justification.

Comment author: Cthulhoo 27 September 2012 12:31:50PM 0 points [-]

Epistemic: To say that a proposition is true is just to say that it meets a high standard of epistemic warrant, and that we are thereby justified in asserting it. The search for truth and the search for justification are not separate goals. There is no more to truth than sufficiently powerful justification.

I'm honestly confused about this definition. Does it mean that once we define what truth is, we can then assert if a proposition is true or not ( truth and "justification" are in this sense intertwined)? In this case, isn't this just a broader case of Correspondence, or better, isn't Correspondence just a particular subcase of Epistemic?

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 02:51:15PM 4 points [-]

Perhaps an example of an epistemic theory of truth will help. Suppose you have a scientific community grappling with a certain set of problems. As their inquiry proceeds, they solve some problems and uncover new ones. In the process, they also greatly refine their methods. Imagine they eventually come to a stage where all their problems have been solved according to their own standards of warrant, and no open problems remain. One theory of truth (due to Charles Peirce) says that their beliefs at this stage of inquiry are true by definition. Truth is just what a community will arrive at at the ideal end of inquiry.

How is this different from a correspondence theory? Well, the correspondence theorist would say that even though the scientists have fully resolved their inquiry according to their own standards, and it seems like their beliefs are highly justified, it still might be the case that they got it wrong. It still might be the case that their beliefs don't correspond to reality, in which case their beliefs are false. For Peirce, this claim makes no sense. According to him, what it means for a belief to conform to reality (or to be true) is for it to be a belief held by a community at the ideal end of inquiry. If we allow that our beliefs can be as justified as we could possibly make them and still fail to be true, then truth becomes a potentially unattainable goal, and for Peirce this would make truth a philosophically useless concept.

The epistemic theory of truth is generally held by philosophers who are skeptical of metaphysics, and who think metaphysical concepts are only valuable to the extent that they make a difference to our lives. If there is a metaphysical distinction that does not correspond to a distinction in what we observe or how we should behave, it should be discarded. This is why they think the theory of truth should be closely tied to our epistemic practices, the stuff we do when we are trying to find the truth.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 07:39:04PM 0 points [-]

OK, so... suppose this community then encounters some new experiences at time T that cause them to reject the solution (S1) to a problem previously considered solved, which they then re-close (with a different solution S2).

A correspondence theorist wasn't sure before T whether S1 was true or false, they're still not sure after T whether S1 is true or false, and the same goes for S2 (and, for that matter, anything else someone might assert). Presumably they will also make statements like S1 was justified before T and unjustified after T, that S2 is justified after T, and might disagree about whether S2 was justified before T.

An epistemic theorist asserts that S1 was true before T and is false after T, that S2 is false after T, and might disagree about whether S2 was true before T.

A deflationary theorist... um... is not committed to any particular position about the truth, falsehood, or indeterminacy of S1 or S2 at any time.

Yes?

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 04:28:37AM 0 points [-]

For Peirce, an end to all problems (and therefore an end to inquiry) includes the claim that there are no reecalcitrant experiences. It isn't just a temporary end to problems, it's a permanent end. This is why he refers to this as the ideal limit of inquiry. So the situation in your first paragraph wouldn't apply. Peirce specifies things this way precisely to avoid the consequence that truth-values can change with time. I should say, though, that this is only one specific epistemic theory, and an early (and therefore kind of unsophisticated) one. I chose it for ease of exposition.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 28 September 2012 04:49:27AM 0 points [-]

Well, OK, but then it seems Peirce's conception of truth is just as potentially unattainable (and thus philosophically useless, by his own account) as the correspondence conception. Unless I've reached an ideal limit of inquiry -- which of course I can't really know I've done, and am unlikely to have done -- then it seems I don't actually have truth, even on Pierce's account.

That aside, though, point taken about epistemicism != Peirce; presumably if I actually care about the latter I should just read Peirce. I'm just being intrigued by it. I do think I roughly understand the concept now; thanks for the explanation.

Comment author: Cthulhoo 27 September 2012 03:48:22PM 0 points [-]

Many thanks to you and Vaniver, I have a clearer picture now (though this mostly looks like a debate over definitions, that can basically be solved by tabooing the word "truth").

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 05:10:10PM 0 points [-]

(though this mostly looks like a debate over definitions, that can basically be solved by tabooing the word "truth").

Not sure what you mean by this. The three theories of truth are different attempts to taboo the word "truth".

Comment author: Cthulhoo 27 September 2012 05:41:34PM 1 point [-]

The three theories of truth are different attempts to taboo the word "truth".

Isn't this the point? Tabooing "truth", one can see that the theories really speak about (slightly) different concepts. Going back to your previous example, if one theory claims the scientists have reached the truth and the second doesn't, how does it change the reality? You can easily define some new words to correspond to the different concepts, and refer to the appropriate label under the different circumstances.

Comment author: metaphysicist 27 September 2012 09:49:54PM *  5 points [-]

Tabooing "truth", one can see that the theories really speak about (slightly) different concepts.

Then, you would merely choose which of the concepts is the one needed for a particular theoretical purpose. Right?

Wrong! The arguments go to the concepts' coherence. This is why it's philosophy, not lexicography.

For example, a correspondence theorist generally argues that the notion of an epistemological limit to which scientific findings converge need not exist and can never be established empirically. If correspondence theory is true, you aren't allowed to use the Piercian limit. It's a vacuous concept.

Or, the correspondence theorist argues that the epistemological limit of scientific investigation can't even be defined without assuming a correspondence variety of truth (which the Piercian, in turn, argues can't exist). The correspondentist argues that if you define truth at a limit, then you have to define the truth that science is converging as itself the result of a scientific investigation at an endpoint, and similarly for the concepts you use to define scientific investigation, etc. Thus, a Piercian view, it's contended, produces an infinite regress.

It's possible that both concepts are coherent, but that too would require a philosophical argument--and it's an unlikely result here, at least in my opinion: it's probably more likely that both concepts are incoherent than that both are coherent.

These kinds of conclusions, philosophical and lacking in direct application, help inform the priors one assigns to just about every scientific controversy.

Comment author: Cthulhoo 28 September 2012 11:00:19AM 1 point [-]

The arguments go to the concepts' coherence.

Ok, this starts to sound more interesting, thank you for the reply. I tried to briefly google for "Piercian limit", though and it didn't turn out anything relevant. Any quick reference?

Comment author: metaphysicist 28 September 2012 08:51:29PM 2 points [-]

Theories using Piercian concepts are today usually termed antirealist or instrumentalist.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 09:58:19PM 0 points [-]

If correspondence theory is true, you aren't allowed to use the Piercian limit. It's a vacuous concept.

(blink) If I accept acorrespondence theory of truth, it seems that correspondence theory is not the sort of thing that is allowed to have a truth value. And if I reject a correspondence theory of truth, then I ought not believe that correspondence theory is true. So it seems that "correspondence theory is true" is necessarily false. No?

Comment author: metaphysicist 28 September 2012 08:53:49PM 1 point [-]

That's an excellent argument if it's the case that correspondence theory is not the sort of thing allowed to have truth values under correspondence theory. Why do you say it's not?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 07:44:45PM 0 points [-]

I might still want to know which concept I'm using when I say something is true.
I might also want to know which concept you're using when you say something is true.
Sure, if I don't know that (or am not confident I know that) then we can taboo "truth," but that gets unwieldy; if we can agree on a shared referent then communication is more efficient. Tabooing key words is sort of like running code under a debugger... a great way of identifying points of failure, but not the way I want to live my life.
If I know whether someone's conception of truth is correspondist or epistemic, they can say "X is true" and I know what they mean about X without having to taboo "truth".

Comment author: Cthulhoo 28 September 2012 10:55:27AM 0 points [-]

This is something I understand and I can agree with. But it's a very practical problem, like making Europeans and Americans agree on the meaning of the word "football". It's very likely that I'm still missing something, though (see metaphysicist reply).

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:55:03PM 2 points [-]

though this mostly looks like a debate over definitions

When you've reached this point, you understand a philosophical debate, for most 20th-century philosophical debates.

Comment author: Vaniver 27 September 2012 02:26:35PM 2 points [-]

Typical examples of the difference between correspondence and epistemic have to do with people being right on accident. For example:

"I don't carry any cash," Bob lies to the mugger. Unbeknownst to Bob, a pickpocket has stolen his wallet, and so he is in fact not carrying any cash.

Is Bob's statement true? Is it a justified true belief?

Correspondence would say that Bob did tell the truth, but epistemic would say that Bob's statement, though true, was unjustified.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 27 September 2012 03:58:36PM *  3 points [-]

Typical examples of the difference between correspondence and epistemic have to do with people being right on accident.

The philosophers call these Gettier problems.

Is Bob's statement true?

This particular story introduces what seems like it should be an extraneous detail: Bob, in saying he doesn't carry cash, is intending to deceive. But our everyday concept of truth is related somehow to honesty; the truth is what a well-informed and honest person would say. Bob here is being dishonest (he wants the mugger to believe something Bob thinks is false) and misinformed, so his dishonesty fails at his goal of protecting his cash. This goal is already lost. Knowing that, the question "but is his statement true?" seems to be unneeded essentialism.

Comment author: Vaniver 27 September 2012 07:51:34PM 1 point [-]

Knowing that, the question "but is his statement true?" seems to be unneeded essentialism.

My impression is that this is what the whole debate is about. What matters to Corresponders is whether or not statements describe reality. Bob's statement correctly predicts whether or not he has cash on him- and "correct prediction" is their standard for truth. They wouldn't care that his dishonesty and misinformation cancel each other out, but would agree that in general dishonesty and misinformation lead to less correct predictions.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 27 September 2012 12:25:10PM 3 points [-]

"Deflationary" is not the same sort of thing as the other two theories, either of which one might believe while being a deflationist. In fact, I don't see a reason to think deflationism is false. What is actually meant by "just saying P" is not answered by deflationism, but by an actual theory of truth.

And I still think that after consulting the Stanford Encyclopedia on the subject.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 10:32:54PM 3 points [-]

The whole point of deflationism is that there is nothing further to be said about truth other than what I said in my description. They think of truth as a shallow notion that plays no significant explanatory role in our accounts of language and meaning. If you think that the deflationist claim needs to be backed up by a more substantive theory of truth then you are not a deflationist. So there you have it, a reason to think deflationism is false.

You can think of deflationism as an anti-theory of truth rather than a theory of truth. The central claim is that no theory of truth is needed. The linguistic function of truth claims can be understood in terms of the formal disquotational scheme I outlined, and there isn't really any deeper metaphysical question about what Truth is.

If you ask a deflationist, "What do you mean by 'just saying P'?", he might respond with a theory of meaning -- a theory that gives a systematic account of how sentences are assigned semantic content -- but he will not respond with a theory of truth.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 29 September 2012 07:32:03AM *  2 points [-]

It seems to me that if a deflationist answers the question "when can you correctly say "snow is white"" with the answer "when snow is, in fact, white", then the deflationist is a correspondencist. If he says "when you have good enough evidence that snow is white", he is an epistemicist. Deflationism on its own is surely just a shallow concern with the word "truth". Of course asserting "it is true that P" is the same as asserting P, but that is not an interesting fact.

Is deflationism historically a response to some obsolete idea about "truth" as an immaterial substance that adheres to true propositions, by virtue of which they are true? Neither of the other two theories assert such an idea.

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:53:46PM 0 points [-]

I totally agree.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:55:21AM 3 points [-]

Teletransporter (new matter): survival or death?

Submitting...

Comment author: BrassLion 01 October 2012 02:56:06PM 0 points [-]

Voted Lean: Death but want to change my answer to "have no bloody clue". For the record, when I first thought about this I was accept: death.

Comment author: kybernetikos 02 May 2013 03:24:22PM 1 point [-]

I tend to think death, but then I'm not sure that we genuinely survive from one second to another.

I don't have a good way to meaningfully define the kind of continuity that most people intuitively think we have and so I conclude that it could easily just be an illusion.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:27:44AM 6 points [-]

Teletransporter: You are placed in a machine that will instantaneously disintegrate your body, in the process recording its exact atomic configuration. This information is then beamed to another machine far away, and in that machine new matter is used to construct a body with the same configuration as yours. Would you consider yourself to have survived the process, and teleported from one machine to the other ("survival")? Or do you think you have died, and the duplicate in the far away machine is a different person ("death")?

Comment author: torekp 28 September 2012 05:53:54PM 3 points [-]

It's important to distinguish between

Teletransportation is death

and

Aaauughh, teletransportation is death!!!

In other words, it's important to avoid the worst argument in the world. I believe that the former statement is implied by a uniquely best answer to a set of verbal questions - but at the same time, it's a mere technicality.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:54:08AM 1 point [-]

Proper names: Fregean or Millian?

Submitting...

Comment author: Gabriel 27 September 2012 11:51:15AM 5 points [-]

Other: both can be true depending on the situation. This can be only meaningfully interpreted as a question of psychology (what goes on in people's heads), there's no way in which one method of ascribing meaning to names is 'truer' than the other so asking to choose between the two looks like a confused question.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:31:36AM *  5 points [-]

This is the same distinction as Russellianism vs. Fregeanism, except applied specifically to proper names. I think in the Philpapers survey, this question replaced the Russellianism vs. Fregeanism one.

Fregean: The meaning of a proper name is a way of conceiving of its bearer. Different names for the same bearer may be associated with different ways of conceiving, and thus have different meanings. For instance, "Superman" and "Clark Kent" have different meanings.

Millian: The meaning of a proper name is its bearer. The meanings of "Superman" and "Clark Kent" are identical.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:51:34AM 3 points [-]

Perceptual experience: disjunctivism, qualia theory, representationalism, or sense-datum theory?

Submitting...

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 12:56:31PM 0 points [-]

Ill-formed question. See my other comment.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 28 September 2012 06:43:53AM 3 points [-]

Other: These are all true for different meanings of "the object of one's perception".

Comment author: ModusPonies 27 September 2012 02:47:48PM 2 points [-]

Other: all of these seem like plausible models with a nonzero amount of predictive power. I don't see how the truth of one of these implies that the others are false. Representationalism and sense-datum theory seem the most useful, I guess, but my real answer is "I don't know, ask a neurologist."

Comment author: BrassLion 01 October 2012 03:01:46PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure how you would even create a test to distingush these models. I'm not sure if my understanding is incomplete or if that's a warning sign that they aren't different or aren't coherent.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 10:55:10AM 4 points [-]

Disjunctivism: In normal cases, when a person is perceiving something, the object of their perception is a mind-independent object. The character of the person's phenomenal experience is explained by the properties of the object (for instance, a person perceiving an apple has an experience of redness because the object of their perception -- the apple -- is red). However, when a person is hallucinating or experiencing an illusion, the object of their perception is some sort of mind-dependent entity (perhaps sense-data; see below). So hallucination and veridical perception are substantially different kinds of mental processes.

Representationalism: Perceptual experience is representational. It represents our immediate environment as being a certain way. Since representations can be both accurate and inaccurate, we can understand both veridical perception and hallucination as the same kind of process. The difference is merely in the success of the representation. To be perceiving is to be representing one's immediate environment in certain ways (visually, aurally, etc.), and perception is accurate to the extent that this representation corresponds to reality.

Sense-datum theory: The objects of our perception are not mind-independent entities, they are mind-dependent objects called sense-data. These are objects like "a red spot at such-and-such position in my visual field". We infer the existence of mind-independent objects from patterns in the sense-data we perceive.

Qualia theory: [I don't think I fully understand the claims of qualia theory. I have tried to describe the kinds of things qualia theorists say, but if it appears confused that's because I am confused.] The phenomenal character of our perceptual experience (the particular way our experience feels) is non-representational. We don't infer information about the external world from the particular feel of our conscious experience; rather, our conscious experience is simply what it feels like (from the inside) to be obtaining sensory information about our environment. One way to put is that my conscious experience doesn't tell me that the apple I'm perceiving is red. My conscious experience is just an effect of the particular way in which I am obtaining information about the apple; I am perceiving the apple red-ly.

Comment author: arborealhominid 01 March 2013 02:59:18AM 0 points [-]

I'm not totally clear on the distinction between representationalism and sense-datum theory. Do you think you could explain it in a bit more detail?

Comment author: diegocaleiro 04 October 2012 04:40:13AM *  -1 points [-]

I don't mean to be rude to the fellow, but my current understanding of why Chalmers (main Qualia theorist) says qualia are what he says they are is isomorphic to Lee Smolin's critique of string theorists. They become string theorists because of sociological reasons. It is the part of physics in which high intelligence is recompensated faster. Chalmers took a polarized view so that the rest of what he defends became visible. It worked fantastically well. http://lesswrong.com/lw/58d/how_not_to_be_a_na%C3%AFve_computationalist/

EDIT: in the link above I suggest a reading of the article "The Content and Epistemology of Phenomenal Belief" by Chalmers. It is the one in which this possible case is most easily visible. It is the case in which inconsistencies in the Chalmerian definition are most visible.

Comment author: Swimmy 28 September 2012 07:43:48PM 3 points [-]

I wonder how many disjunctivists have actually taken hallucinatory drugs?

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 12:55:46PM 0 points [-]

I think qualia theory is quite othogonal to (in)direct realism. Different qualia tbeorists hold qualia to be direct perceptions of external properties, or to be qualitites of sense data, or to be adverbial. Etc.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 01:09:23PM 0 points [-]

Then in what sense is it a distinct view about perception? Are the poll options just poorly formulated?

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 01:25:38PM 1 point [-]

Yes. Sense dataum theory barely differs from representationalism, direct relaism isn't mentioned, and qualia theory is orthogonal.

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 01:30:02PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Sense datum theory is significantly different from representationalism, since sense data aren't supposed to intentional objects. Disjunctivism is the only form of direct realism anyone takes seriously any more, as far as I'm aware. You may be right about qualia theory, but I have heard people use the term as a stand-in for adverbialism. I suspect that's what it's supposed to represent in the poll.

Comment author: Peterdjones 28 September 2012 02:35:54PM 0 points [-]

It looks like the list of options was cribbed from the The SEP article , but without much context.

Comment author: torekp 28 September 2012 11:59:40AM 0 points [-]

For someone who isn't confident of understanding qualia theory, you stated it quite well. Near the end it could use a tweak, I think: "my conscious experience in its entirety isn't essential to my knowing that the apple is red. The phenomenal quality of the experience is just an effect ..."

This leaves the verbal issue open, of whether perceived facts as well as phenomenal qualities count as part of "conscious experience".

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 07:15:44PM *  2 points [-]

Just to be clear: sense-datum theory is not asserting that distal stimuli don't exist or that we're unjustified in inferring their existence or otherwise making a claim about existence. It is merely asserting that we infer their existence from sense data, as opposed to, um.... doing something other than that. Yes?

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 07:33:57PM 1 point [-]

Yes, the claim is that mind-independent objects are not the direct objects of perception, sense-data are. In so far as perception gives us information about distal objects, that information is inferred from patterns in sense data.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:42:20AM 1 point [-]

Logic: classical or non-classical?

Submitting...

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 03:40:18AM -1 points [-]

My interpretation of this question is metaphysical: 'Is reality classical?' This is shorthand for: 'Is there any fact that is fundamentally, objectively, and in principle...

... inexpressible? ... vague? ... contradictory? ... indeterminate? (I.e., neither the case nor not-the-case.) ... etc.

But this is a strange set of questions, and I suspect most professional philosophers and LessWrongers are instead answering a confused mixture of (mostly trivial) questions like 'which logic do I find most useful?'.

Comment author: RobinZ 30 September 2012 04:17:43AM 0 points [-]

Other: The objection to classical logic stated in pragmatist's summary needs to be addressed, but I lack sufficient knowledge of the field to determine whether the best resolution of these objections is likely to take the form of (a) a solution within classical logic or (b) the adoption of a non-classical logic.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 09:13:55PM -1 points [-]

Other: probability distributions over world-histories. Otherwise classical.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:32:32AM *  4 points [-]

Other: Different logics are appropriate for modeling how one should infer in different domains. Classical logics are fine for many applications but it is possible (maybe even plausible) that non-classical logics will be better models for certain applications. For instance, fuzzy logic (a many-valued logic) has been successfully employed to control subway systems and build thermostats.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 27 September 2012 11:53:09AM 1 point [-]

And yet the metalanguage is always classical logic. Even the most enthusiastic proponents of other systems never use them to talk about those systems. So I go firmly with "classical".

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:59:15AM 2 points [-]

That seems consistent with my view. For the specific application you mention -- talking about logical systems -- classical logics are our best models. It could still be the case that other logics are better for other applications. What makes this particular application the trump card, so that the fact that classical logic is best for doing metalogic means that it is the best simpliciter?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 27 September 2012 12:49:44PM 2 points [-]

First, I shall ask the question "what is logic?" And I shall answer it. In the context of the present poll, "logic" means those methods of reasoning that are guaranteed to produce, from true premises, only true conclusions. And the poll is asking whether classical logic is it.

Particular formalisms used to model particular things are not, in this sense, logic, although they may be expressed in logic. For example, number theory is not logic. Neither is geometry, or physics, or probability theory. Neither, I claim, is fuzzy logic, despite the word "logic" in its name. You can say, "here is a set of functions (which I shall call fuzzy logic truth tables), and here are some theorems about how they behave (which I shall call fuzzy reasoning), and here are some physical systems whose description uses these functions." That does not mean that those functions are actually a form of logic, as I just defined it. Bang-bang controllers like the room thermostat were invented (in 1883) long before fuzzy control theory (about which I've heard anecdotally that the term was invented only to avoid someone's patent claims).

The closest anyone has come to promulgating an alternative system is intuitionistic logic, which is a pessimistic version of classical logic, in which the axiom of the excluded middle is dropped. In intuitionistic logic, you cannot infer P from not-not-P, or carry out proof by contradiction. However, I think intuitionism is simply a mistake, a historical accident which would never have happened if there had not been a half century between the codification of mathematical logic and the invention of the computer. Everything that is useful in intuitionism is given by computability theory and classical logic.

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 07:20:06PM 0 points [-]

In the context of the present poll, "logic" means those methods of reasoning that are guaranteed to produce, from true premises, only true conclusions. And the poll is asking whether classical logic is it.

I think you're begging the question. I think you've given a definition of "classical logic" rather than "logic".

Comment author: RichardKennaway 28 September 2012 08:23:39AM *  0 points [-]

I think you're begging the question. I think you've given a definition of "classical logic" rather than "logic".

I think that it seems that way only because classical logic has so definitively answered the question. The question is "how shall we reason?", and it was not obvious beforehand that the first-order predicate calculus was the answer. It took two thousand years to get there from the ancient Greeks' understanding.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 01:10:19PM 3 points [-]

I agree with you that a logic is an account of truth-preserving inference. But, by this definition, fuzzy logic absolutely qualifies as a logic. The rules of inference in fuzzy logic are truth-preserving, provided we're talking about "full" truth, i.e. we're not in the realm of fuzziness. There are other non-classical logics, besides intuitionism, that also provide accounts of valid inference that are truth-preserving. Relevance logic, for example.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 27 September 2012 01:23:48PM 0 points [-]

I still see those as mathematics, rather than logic, and the same goes for all other non-classical systems, such as all the modal logics. All of these are more like group theory than they are like logic, in the fundamentalist sense of "logic" I read the poll as talking about. They axiomatise certain mathematical objects, but not the general process of valid reasoning itself. That, I claim, is a problem completely solved by the classical first-order predicate calculus.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:26:38AM *  6 points [-]

Classical: The standard kinds of logic that you learn in undergraduate logic classes are the best (or right) logics, the ones that best model (ETA: idealized versions of) our inferential processes. Examples of classical logics are Boolean logic and first-order predicate calculus. Classical logics are bivalent (sentences can only be true or false), obey the principle of the excluded middle (if a proposition is not true, its negation must be true) and obey the law of non-contradiction (a proposition and its negation cannot both be true).

Non-classical: The best logic is not classical. Non-classical logics usually reject the principle of the excluded middle or the law of non-contradiction. An example of a non-classical logic is dialetheism, according to which there are true contradictions (i.e. some sentences of the form "A and not A" are true). Proponents of non-classical logics argue that many of our scientific theories, if you probe deeply, involve inconsistencies, yet we don't regard them as trivially false. So they claim that we need to revise the way we understand logic to accurately model our inferential processes.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 10:29:48PM 1 point [-]

What does Bayesian probability theory count as?

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 28 September 2012 02:18:12AM 3 points [-]

What does Bayesian probability theory count as?

Bayesian probability is an extension of classical logic. I don't think philosophers consider it to be non-classical.

Comment author: kilobug 16 January 2013 04:31:38PM -1 points [-]

In my AI lessons, the "non-classical logic" course including all the probabilistic theories : fuzzy logic, Bayesian, ... that's why I voted "lean : non-classical", but I guess it's just a matter of vocabulary.

Comment author: [deleted] 28 September 2012 07:53:19AM 0 points [-]

Okay, so “Accept: classical” be it.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 06:33:00PM 1 point [-]

I lean towards classical, but with the proviso that we have to be careful about what counts as a statement. Sneak in a statement with ambiguous truth values, and classical logic halts and catches fire. Personally I'm OK with rejecting such statemetns.

Comment author: komponisto 27 September 2012 04:04:22PM 4 points [-]

Classical: The standard kinds of logic that you learn in undergraduate logic classes are the best (or right) logics, the ones that best model our inferential processes

Is that the right criterion? Or should it be: the ones that best model the correct inferential processes, whether or not we humans adhere to them?

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 05:04:31PM 0 points [-]

Good point. I've edited to reflect this.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:40:43AM 2 points [-]

Knowledge claims: contextualism, relativism, or invariantism?

Submitting...

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 02:34:27AM *  -1 points [-]

None of the prior discussion reflects an understanding of 'contextualism' as standardly conceived by philosophers (if the Stanford Encyclopedia exposition is representative of philosophers' views). So I suspect the polling data for this question will need to be tossed out. Here's a clearer explanation of the difference between these doctrines:

contextualism = The semantic thesis that 'x knows y' may vary in truth-value depending on the social and psychological status of the knowledge-attributor. I.e., 'x knows y' often or always fails to have a determinate truth-value, unless it is clear from context that we are really saying 'x knows y relative to evaluator z,' where z is someone evaluating 'does x know y?' Thus, a better name for 'contextualism' would be 'attributor contextualism' (which it has indeed been called).

Note that contextualism does not imply that the distribution of knowledge in the world is arbitrary or just a matter of subjective opinion; there may be very strict constraints on what sorts of 'subjective opinions' held by an evaluator affect knowledge-relative-to-an-evaluator. For instance, it is plausible that 'I know I have hands' would count as true if the evaluator were your psychiatrist, but would count as false if the evaluator were someone with whom you were debating the Simulation Hypothesis. That's not because of the evaluator's mere opinions; it's because there are higher standards for knowledge in metaphysical debates than in everyday conversation. An evaluator with crazy, unrealistic standards wouldn't have his/her own, equally legitimate beliefs about what counts as knowledge; s/he would just be consistently in error.

Nor is contextualism a meta-semantic claim about how the word 'knowledge' varies across linguistic communities; rather, it is the semantic claim that 'knowledge' in all (standard-English-speaking) contexts would frequently be judged to vary based on the state of the evaluator. Contextualism could turn out to be false for purely empirical reasons, if, say, sociological data proved that we don't vary in knowledge-attribution based on the mental state and social context of the attributor.

relativism = The metaphysical thesis that knowledge as such is relative to a standard of assessment. Like contextualists, relativists think 'know' is three-place; but their relation is 'x knows y according to standard z,' not 'x knows y relative to evaluator z.' And whereas there are presumably facts about which agent is evaluating a knowledge-claim in the real world, there are no facts about which standard is the 'right' one; so there simply are no facts about knowledge, or even about knowledge-according-to-an-agent. What there are are facts about 'what certain standards treat as being "knowledge"'.

I said that relativism is a 'metaphysical' view, not a semantic one. This is important. Contextualism can be refuted if it turns out that the English language is invariantist; but relativism can't be so easily refuted, since their claim is not that we think of knowledge as relative, but that knowledge really is relative. Relativism is very close to radical skepticism, just with 'knowledge'-talk preserved as a way of signaling one's chosen standards. Whereas contextualism is just as opposed to skepticism as is invariantism. Speaking of which...

invariantism = The claim that we have knowledge of some things, combined with the semantic thesis that contextualism is false and the metaphysical thesis that relativism is false. According to an invariantist, 'I know I have hands' is either true or false simpliciter; evaluators and standards-of-evaluation might disagree about this statement's truth-value, but that's because some evaluators and some standards are wrong, not because 'knowledge' itself is unsaturated.

Source for all this: Rysiew, "Relativism and Contextualism".

Comment author: pragmatist 16 January 2013 07:52:07AM *  0 points [-]

In your discussion of contextualism, you are conflating "evaluator" and "attributor", I think. An attributor is someone who makes a knowledge-claim, i.e. attributes knowledge of some proposition to someone (including, possibly, to himself). An evaluator is someone who judges the truth of the knowledge-claim made by the attributor. So if you say "I know I have hands" to a psychologist, you are the attributor, not the psychologist. You are the one making the knowledge-claim (about yourself, in this case). The psychologist is the evaluator, and according to contextualism she will (or possibly should) evaluate your claim according to your context, not her own. So if the psychologist hears about you making the claim in the context of a discussion of the Simulation argument, she should probably judge it false, irrespective of the context in which she is situated at the time she is making the evaluation.

I believe this agrees more or less with the definition (and discussion) above. Your definitions of relativism and invariance seem to agree with mine.

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 03:32:22PM -1 points [-]

In your discussion of contextualism, you are conflating "evaluator" and "attributor", I think.

I wasn't aware that there was an established distinction between the two. Thanks for the information! Though nothing of great weight can rest on it, since:

  1. Every attributor is a (self-)evaluator. Asserting 'p' is equivalent to asserting 'p is true'.

  2. Every evaluator is an attributor. To determine that some attributor's knowledge-claim is true or false, one must oneself attribute knowledge (or lack thereof) to the relevant agent.

if you say "I know I have hands" to a psychologist, you are the attributor, not the psychologist.

Yes. But if the psychologist evaluates your claim, by weighing in on its truth or falsehood, then the psychologist becomes a distinct attributor. I varied the psychologist or metaphysician as attributor, rather than paying much mind to self-attribution/self-evaluation, simply because I thought it would be less intuitive to talk about a person's knowledge-claims failing to meet his or her own psychological/social state. But, sure, strictly speaking I could have just varied the psychological state of someone self-attributing knowledge, and thereby made that person's own beliefs about his/her knowledge true or false. (At least, I think standard contextualist theories allow this.)

So if the psychologist hears about you making the claim in the context of a discussion of the Simulation argument, she should probably judge it false, irrespective of the context in which she is situated at the time she is making the evaluation.

Interesting. I think it's more complicated than that. For instance, I think contextualism predicts that the psychologist, in a later dinner conversation with a metaphysician friend, might say: 'Earlier I told a patient that he knew he had hands; but, of course, really he doesn't have hands.' The contextualist interprets this as meaning that the psychologist's state has importantly changed, hence her knowledge-attributions have changed, hence her knowledge-evaluations have changed. (Presumably part of the reason the psychologist's knowledge-attributions have changed in this case is that she's in a social context that includes a metaphysician with psychologically embedded 'higher standards'. I.e., contextualism predicts that social overlap produces synchronizations in correct knowledge attribution.)

Note that an invariantist might interpret the same data very differently. A relatively skeptical invariantist could suggest that the psychologist was speaking loosely, not-quite-correctly, when she said 'Yes, you have hands.' Or a relatively Moorean invariantist could suggest that the psychologist became too hyperskeptical in the face of social pressure from the metaphysician. On the other hand, a relativist would suggest that there isn't any determinate answer to whether 'Yes, you have hands.' was right, nor to whether 'No, he didn't have hands' was. Even stipulating all the contextual facts underdetermines whether knowledge is present.

Comment author: drnickbone 27 September 2012 09:41:57PM 0 points [-]

Lean towards contextualism, but with some problems. For instance:

"I know that I have hands" "I don't know that I'm not a brain in a vat"

However, I've just asserted them side by side in the same context (of a Less Wrong discussion). And I don't think relativism helps much either: can the assessor change their epistemic standards so quickly in the space of two consecutive sentences??

Comment author: Kindly 28 September 2012 03:40:41PM 1 point [-]

You're allowed to be mistaken or lying. I suspect a contextualist would argue that exactly one of your assertions is true, depending on what the context of the discussion is.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:08:24AM *  7 points [-]

Contextualism: The truth of a knowledge claim depends on the context in which it is uttered. A claim such as "Alice knows that she is not in the Matrix" might be true in certain contexts (when explaining to someone in ordinary conversation why Alice didn't lose sleep over the movie Matrix) but false in other contexts (when uttered in an epistemology class in a discussion about the possibility of us being in the Matrix). The usual analysis is that the same sentence about knowledge expresses different propositions in different contexts (just like the sentence "It's raining here" expresses different propositions in different contexts).

Relativism: Whether a subject possesses knowledge of a certain proposition is relative to a set of epistemic standards. Relative to one such set, she might know that the proposition is true, while relative to another set, she does not qualify as knowing this. So, strictly speaking, "knowledge" is a three-place function, taking as arguments a subject, a proposition and a set of standards.

Invariantism: Knowledge claims are either true or false simpliciter. Their truth does not vary depending on context, and they are not relativized to epistemic standards.

EDIT: A couple of people have said that the difference between contextualism and relativism is unclear. I have tried to clarify in this comment.

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:44:49PM 0 points [-]

That doesn't match my intuition about what "relativism" means here, but I haven't taken any epistemology in a while so I'm more likely to be wrong, I think.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 04:58:07PM 0 points [-]

What is your intuition?

Comment author: komponisto 27 September 2012 04:01:32PM 0 points [-]

Don't see much difference between contextualism and relativism.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 04:56:15PM *  1 point [-]

In relativism, a single utterance of a knowledge claim can be assessed differently depending on the assessor's epistemic standards. So the truth value of a knowledge claim can vary depending on who is doing the assessing.

In contextualism, the truth value of a knowledge claim only varies if the context of utterance is different. A single utterance of a knowledge claim will have a fixed truth value, independent of who is assessing the claim. You only get variance when you vary the context in which the utterance is made, just like you only get variance in the meaning of "It's raining here" if you vary the context in which it is uttered.

Does that help?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 05:22:51PM 2 points [-]

Er... well, not yet, but might be a step towards helping.

I get that, if the conditions "different assessor" and "different context of utterance" are separable, then relativism makes distinct claims from contextualism. That is, if I have a different assessor but the same context (or even the same assessor whose epistemic standards have changed, and the same context), then contextualism asserts that the truth value of my claims is necessarily unchanged, and relativism asserts that it might change.

What I can't fathom is how that happens, even in principle. Isn't the assessor, and the assessor's epistemic standards, part of the context of the utterance?

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 05:34:01PM *  1 point [-]

The assessor doesn't have to be a person standing there listening to the utterance. Suppose I told you that my friend Alice says that she knows OJ Simpson killed his wife, and I ask you what you think about her knowledge claim. If you were a relativist, you would evaluate the truth of the knowledge claim in accord with your epistemic standards, or you might even say, "Well, relative to standards X her knowledge claim is true, but relative to standards Y it's false."

If you were a contextualist, on the other hand, you'd ask me "In what context did she make this knowledge claim?" and then base your evaluation of the knowledge claim on my answer. You allow the context to set the epistemic standard you use for evaluation.

Another example: Suppose Bob says "Alice knows P" in one context, and Charlie says "Alice doesn't know P" in another context. For a contextualist, it might be the case that Bob and Charlie are not disagreeing at all. If the contexts are sufficiently different, you can't pit their knowledge claims against one another. A relativist, on the other hand, can pit the knowledge claims against one another, by relativizing them to the same epistemic standard. Only one of them will be true according to that standard.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 05:47:16PM 1 point [-]

Ah!
(lightbulb goes on)
Throughout, I have been implicitly understanding "context" to mean context of evaluation.
Which is not what we mean at all, we mean context of utterance.
Which, indeed, you even said explicitly, and I failed to read carefully enough.

Yes, this makes perfect sense.

Thinking about this now, I think I endorse contextualism, even though attempting to implement it gives me a headache. That is, whether I'm comfortable saying that you actually know X is a function of what evidence for and against X I believe you're aware of, but my brain strongly tends to replace (my beliefs about) what evidence you're aware of with what evidence I'm aware of.

I no longer remember what my vote was.

Thanks for your patience.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 05:32:42PM *  2 points [-]

What I can't fathom is how that happens, even in principle. Isn't the assessor, and the assessor's epistemic standards, part of the context of the utterance?

So imagine you read an ancient text in which the claim "the voice of Zeus follows upon his blows" appears as a description of the relation between thunder and lightening. THe assessor and facts about the assessor are nowhere part of the context of the utterance, because the utterance was made thousands of years before you were born.

An invariantist would say 'that's false, there's no such thing as Zeus'.

A relativist would say 'That's false to me (no Zeus), but it might have been true for the person who wrote it if they had different standards for truth."

A contextualist would say 'So Zeus doesn't exist, but the voice and blows of Zeus are just terms for lightening and thunder. If someone made this comment knowing what we know about stoms, it would be false. But I assess this statement as true, because I take the utterer to be talking about lightening and thunder.'

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 05:48:12PM 1 point [-]

(nods) I think I get it now... thanks! (More thoughts here)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 03:15:47PM 0 points [-]

I'm not really sure why the distinction between contextualism and relativism makes a difference.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 04:57:37PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:46:08PM 0 points [-]

Basically, philosophers are sufficiently agreed on epistemology that both mean basically the same thing for the lay person's understanding. There's even a species of invariantism called "subject-sensitive invariantism" that is indistinguishable from contextualism to the uninitiated.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:38:07AM 3 points [-]

External world: idealism, skepticism, or non-skeptical realism?

Submitting...

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:38:06AM *  6 points [-]

Non-skeptical realism: A mind-independent reality exists, and we have epistemic access to its structure. We can acquire substantial knowledge about reality.

Skepticism: A mind-independent reality exists, but we lack epistemic access to it. We cannot know the nature of reality. We only have access to how things appear to us, and we should take seriously the possibility that this is very different from how things actually are.

Idealism: Reality is not mind-independent. It is either wholly or partly mentally constituted. We can know about reality because there is not much (or no) distance between how things appear to us and how things actually are.

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 01:25:02AM 0 points [-]

A mind-independent reality exists, but we lack epistemic access to it.

Three problems:

  1. This seems to entail the absurd proposition "p, but we have no way of knowing that p". I.e., it's not clear how to cash out 'epistemic access' in a way that allows us to know that there is a mind-independent world, without knowing anything further about that world. This uncharitably commits skepticism to an internal tension, if not an outright contradiction.

  2. "We only have access to how things appear to us", inasmuch as it implies "We have access to how things appear to us", is itself a substantive doctrine about how reality breaks down, and one skepticism need not endorse. So this uncharitably assigns certain doctrinal commitments to skeptics as a group.

  3. This reading assumes that skeptics are realists of some sort, or that they privilege realism as a hypothesis over idealism. The original question does not state this, so idealistic or neutral skeptics may be unfairly biased by this interpretation.

Reality is not mind-independent. It is either wholly or partly mentally constituted.

'Mentally constituted' is vague. If this just means that part of reality is mental (or irreducibly mental), then it seems to treat dualism as a form of idealism, which is very nonstandard.

Comment author: pragmatist 16 January 2013 07:27:00AM 0 points [-]

This reading assumes that skeptics are realists of some sort, or that they privilege realism as a hypothesis over idealism. The original question does not state this, so idealistic or neutral skeptics may be unfairly biased by this interpretation.

Fair enough. I should have said something like: "A mind-independent reality might exist, and if it does then we lack epistemic access to it."

Comment author: drnickbone 27 September 2012 09:48:34PM 3 points [-]

I'm not sure how well this fits with fallibilist accounts of knowledge (e.g. probabilism, Bayesianism). A Bayesian doesn't "rule out" possibilities when setting probabilities strictly between 0 or 1, so this technically looks like "skepticism". But if I claim that I'm 99.9999% certain that a mind-independent reality exists and I have substantial knowledge about it, that really doesn't sound very skeptical!

Comment author: pragmatist 28 September 2012 04:04:56AM *  0 points [-]

You can read "rule out" as "no longer take seriously". The probability of a hypothesis doesn't have to go down all the way to 0 before I stop taking it seriously. I've edited the original description to reflect this.

Comment author: drnickbone 28 September 2012 07:11:00AM 1 point [-]

Thanks for this clarification. I was going for "lean towards non-skeptical realism" but would say "accept non-skeptical realism" under your new formulation. I don't rule out a simulation hypothesis, for instance, but can't say I give it serious probability weighting. (Bostrom considers it one of three disjuncts, and I can give reasons to assign the other disjuncts much higher probability.)

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 10:25:26PM 0 points [-]

Exactly what I was going to say.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:33:38AM 2 points [-]

Aesthetic value: objective or subjective?

Submitting...

Comment author: hankx7787 28 September 2012 02:39:14PM 2 points [-]

Of course this question is universally (snerk) misunderstood as "objective" = "universal", which are not actually synonymous.

Comment author: RichardHughes 27 September 2012 09:45:09PM -2 points [-]

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that aesthetic value is objective when humans regularly disagree about the aesthetic value of things. It's a pretty stern counterexample.

Comment author: DanArmak 27 September 2012 11:56:53PM 7 points [-]

Humans regularly disagree about lots of objective things, because they're wrong about them.

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:41:21PM 4 points [-]

This is one of those cases where I'm not sure exactly what "objective" and "subjective" are supposed to mean. Probably 2-place words, but probably objective ones.

Comment author: komponisto 27 September 2012 03:58:59PM 1 point [-]

Other: a complex weighted mixture of both, and varying according to context. Similar to ethical value.

Comment author: Vaniver 27 September 2012 02:48:17PM 2 points [-]

I went with Other because I think aesthetic judgments are mostly the same for humans, but will be whatever evolution spits out for non-humans. There's some objective (aesthetic value is a product of evolution) and some subjective (because it's a product of evolution, it's environment-dependent and subject to variation).

For all I know, though, that position is Accept:subjective, since 2-place words would be a radical new insight to most philosophers who pick Accept:objective.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:42:27AM 1 point [-]

Other: I'm genuinely undecided about this. I don't think I lean substantially in either direction.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 09:30:18AM 1 point [-]

A priori knowledge: yes or no?

Submitting...

Comment author: RobinZ 30 September 2012 04:09:13AM 1 point [-]

What, precisely, is the distinction between this and the "Knowledge: empiricism or rationalism?" question?

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 02:58:10AM *  0 points [-]

A good way of unpacking the distinction: A-priorism is a normative (evaluative, epistemological) thesis, whereas rationalism is a descriptive (factual, psychological) one.

A-priorism says that we have warrant to believe some things without appealing to any evidence (more strictly: without appealing to any information beyond that which was required to understand the proposition in the first place).

Rationalism says that we arrive at some of our understanding of reality without an essential causal dependence upon prior experience. (E.g., we have some extremely primitive proto-understanding of 'space' or 'causality' or 'quantity' that precedes our experiential acquaintance with the instances of those categories.)

So an empiricist can assert a-priorism, if s/he thinks that in principle we could justify certain claims without any reference to experience, but also thinks that as a matter of fact our cognitive, epistemic, and conceptual grasp on everything, including our grasp on linguistic truths like 'all bachelors are bachelors,' stems entirely from sensory data. A-priorism doesn't entail rationalism. A rationalist must make the further assertion that some kinds of understanding are not only justifiable without appeal to empirical data, but are also obtainable without a causal basis in past empirical encounters.

An empiricist might claim that our grasp of time, for example, developmentally arises via the sequence of external events imprinting itself upon the rudimentary sense-data-gathering faculties of the embryonic brain; whereas a rationalist would claim that we have some sort of grasp on time 'built in' by the evolved structure of our brain, requiring little if any 'pre-structured' sensory input to develop. Our experiential acquaintance with time is then mainly dependent on our innate makeup, rather than our innate makeup being mainly shaped by the temporality of our actual sense-data. (Notice that these are fuzzy distinctions; presumably actual brain development involves a dynamic interaction between innate and experiential information, so there is a continuous empiricism-to-rationalism scale, not a sharp division. A-priorism may be a sharper concept, if 'justification' is discrete.)

Comment author: RobinZ 17 January 2013 06:01:26AM 0 points [-]

That makes sense - thanks!

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 09:18:29PM 3 points [-]

A priori knowledge is knowledge from the operation of a mind. It is a sort of sensory experience.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 27 September 2012 12:10:46PM 1 point [-]

Hasn't this one been resolved by computer science?

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 12:40:14PM 1 point [-]

I think Evo-Psych was first.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 11:41:28AM 3 points [-]

Yes: There are certain facts we can come to know for which our knowledge need not be based on sensory experience.

No: The sort of justification that elevates belief to knowledge must always appeal to sensory experience.

Comment author: RobbBB 14 January 2013 02:03:06AM -1 points [-]

This isn't quite right. As others have noted, 'sensory experience' is very ambiguous here. A better definition:

Yes: There is at least one proposition one can be justified in believing merely by knowing the meaning of that proposition. I.e., no more experience is required than is necessary to understand the proposition in the first place.

No: One cannot be justified in believing any proposition merely from knowing its meaning.

Comment author: pragmatist 16 January 2013 06:42:13AM *  0 points [-]

The definitions you provide are traditionally associated with the analytic/synthetic distinction, not the a priori/a posteriori distinction. While many philosophers have held that all and only analytic propositions are true a priori, other philosophers have disagreed. Kant, for instance, regarded the truths of arithmetic and geometry as a priori true but not analytic, i.e. not true in virtue of the meanings of the terms involved. He thought our knowledge of these truths was based on the forms of our spatial and temporal intuition.

There are also those who argue that certain moral truths are justified a priori (Kant was one of them). Again, I doubt that they would say that this is because their truth follows from the meanings of the terms involved.

It's true that "sensory experience" is ambiguous, but that ambiguity has been at the heart of philosophical discussion about the a priori, so I think my definitions do capture the standard usage. I'd also note that "meaning" is similarly ambiguous.

Comment author: RobbBB 16 January 2013 04:44:02PM *  0 points [-]

I think both of our definitions are reasonably common, and that both are also somewhat misleading. I recommended mine partly because I've seen it from a lot of sources, e.g.:

Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy, entry on a priori: "'It can be known a priori that p, if anyone whose experience is enough for him to know what "p" means, requires no further experience in order to know that p.'"

Allen Wood, leading Kant scholar: "A proposition is known a priori when knowledge of it does not depend in any way on the specific contents of experience, when any experience that would suffice to enable us to entertain the proposition would also be sufficient to give us knowledge of its truth."

So I think this 'quasi-analytic' definition is the more traditional one, though perhaps it doesn't fully capture modern usage. I also recommended it because I find the dispute over analyticity more philosophically interesting and deep than the dispute over what counts as sense-data. 'Is the experience of reasoning a sensory experience?' seems more obviously terminological than 'Is 2+2=4 true purely in virtue of its meaning?'

You say that the ambiguity of the term 'senory experience' "has been at the heart of philosophical discussion about the a priori", but I think it's been mostly a blind-alley, and that the really substantive debates about the a priori have instead concerned the nature of justification in the absence of any experiential evidence, including memory, phenomenological introspection, telepathic insight, divine revelation... -- all of which fail to be conventionally 'sensory'.

Or perhaps: Absent any experiential evidence aside from my experience with natural chains of reasoning and inference...?

Here, I think, is where the heart of the dispute over the a priori lies: The question, not of whether our reasoning chains and intuitions are 'sensory,' but over whether they afford a categorically different kind of epistemic justification than does induction. The question is not 'When I reason from the Peano axioms to 2+2=4, is my reasoning sensory?'. Instead, the question is 'When I reason from the Peano axioms to 2+2=4, is my warrant or justification contingent upon inductive generalizations like "In the past, my mathematical reasoning has tended to be accurate"?' Is it ever the case that I just know X, because of the character or dynamics of my reasoning, and not purely because of my empirical grounds for deeming my reasoning reliable? Huge swathes of epistemology stand or fall with this question.

Still, your point stands that the terminology seems redundant if we can't distinguish a-priori knowledge from analytic. Bruce Russell suggests this analysis, which is more careful than my definition above:

Perhaps there are two ways belief in a proposition can be justified a priori. First, a person might have an intuition that a proposition like “bachelors are unmarried” is true based on understanding the concepts involved and, second, she might have an intuition that, say, happiness is an intrinsic good, or that no object can be in two wholly different places at the same time, based on her inability to think of counterexamples to those claims. In each case, a rational intuition, or insight, would be the evidence on which the justification rests, but the intuitions would be based on different things.

So perhaps a better way to formulate "A priori knowledge: yes or no?" than either of our answers suggested would be:

Yes: Some of our beliefs can be justified by immediate intuitions or insights independent of empirical evidence sufficient to demonstrate the inductive reliability of those intuitions/insights.

No: None of our beliefs can be justified, even provisionally, in that way. (I.e., epistemic justification is impossible, or it can only be acquired via empirical induction -- that is, via a posteriori reasoning.)

What do you think?

Comment author: FiftyTwo 26 September 2012 08:38:13PM 4 points [-]

Meta:

IAWYC but it is slightly problematic that the Philpapers survey polls the opinions of all philosophers, rather than those in a specific field. I am unsure if the opinions on current debates in metaphysics held but political philosophers will be much better than an average college graduate's. It might be interesting to contrast the 'lesswrong position' on question X with the position of 'mainstream philosophers' who study the relevant sub-field.

Comment author: gwern 26 September 2012 11:23:55PM 6 points [-]

All I can say is that you're not going to be happy with the 'philosophy of religion' statistics.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 September 2012 08:44:12PM 9 points [-]

You can filter the survey results by specialization. Use the AOS (Area of Specialization) drop down menu.

Comment author: DanArmak 26 September 2012 05:54:48PM *  2 points [-]

Meta-poll: this is not one of the original poll questions. It's just something I wanted to ask.

What is your opinion of modern philosophy, if the questions in this survey are taken as representative, important, unresolved issues in the field?

Interesting questions: most open philosophical problems are meaningful, useful, or interesting, and it is worthwhile to research them. If philosophers come to a broad agreement on a currently open issue, non-philosophers should pay attention.

Interesting debate: most philosophical problems are confused debates, e.g. over the meanings of words, and the participants often do not realize this. However, they are useful or interesting to non-philosophers mostly due to what they tell us about the philosophers (e.g. as signalling, or in the correlations between answers elicited by the PhilPapers survey); or for some other reason.

Uninteresting: most philosophical problems are historically-contigent arguments and confusions that should be discarded.

Submitting...

Comment author: diegocaleiro 04 October 2012 04:27:22AM 1 point [-]

There probably is a gigantic bias to the "Uninteresting" amount of responders. If you find those uninteresting, you wouldn't get here in the first place. So, given now it is about 25% "Uninteresting" I'd guess more than 50% LWers are of that opinion.

Comment author: magfrump 28 September 2012 03:07:32AM 1 point [-]

Other: unanswered philosophical questions are about evenly distributed between interesting questions that will soon be matters of engineering, confused and revealing questions, and historical nonsense. I produced easy examples of all three categories without trying.

Comment author: Vaniver 27 September 2012 08:09:36PM 0 points [-]

This book makes the argument that (paraphrased, and put into LW terms) most philosophy is uninteresting because their curiosity doesn't seek to annihilate itself. Instead of asking "how can we actually improve our knowledge?" they bicker over the definition of JTB.

The tools and insights of philosophy can be useful when you try to answer the practical questions, but most controversial topics are controversial because there are a lot of wrong ideas there, not because it's a hot new empirical question (Higgs: does it exist? If so, how big is it?).

Comment author: thomblake 27 September 2012 04:39:26PM 0 points [-]

Other: Philosophical problems primarily serve to encourage creative thinking and asking more abstract questions about the world. Philosophical debates primarily serve to remind us that intelligent, well-meaning people can disagree about pretty fundamental things, so we should tread carefully when assuming our "opponents" are idiots or monsters.

Comment author: Spinning_Sandwich 27 September 2012 07:15:02AM 0 points [-]

This depends a great deal on both which branch of philosophy we're talking about & who is evaluating that particular branch's usefulness.

For example, I find developments in logics, philosophy of science, & general epistemology to be of great interest, and I perceive all three topics to be advancing (listed in order of priority as that goes) as the years go by. I'm sure others feel differently.

It would be hard to get past the fact that, especially between the different branches of philosophy, there is a great deal of "philosophy of language" that is or must be done just to get at what anyone's talking about. But that is, to some extent, true of any field with a technical language.

So I guess all four answers make sense in some sense.

Comment author: Swimmy 27 September 2012 02:58:28AM 2 points [-]

Philosophical problems as a whole are a mix of all 3, and I don't know enough about modern philosophy to empirically determine which answer reigns in the "most." Voted "Other."

Comment author: TimS 27 September 2012 02:09:43AM *  1 point [-]

Uninteresting artifacts of history. But some (moral realism or not) are vitally important to figuring out effective social engineering.

But I'm in a minority in this community in thinking that social engineering is desirable (other than as an inevitable effect of physical engineering/ technological progress).

Comment author: Manfred 26 September 2012 08:13:32PM 1 point [-]

ADBOC with talking about "most," so I voted other. But maybe I should have voted "Uninteresting."

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 26 September 2012 07:23:31PM 3 points [-]

"Uninteresting", but perhaps only due to Sturgeon's law.

Comment author: Alejandro1 26 September 2012 06:48:33PM 1 point [-]

I voted for "Interesting questions", because a slight majority of the polled questions fall in that category to me, and that matches the literal meaning of "most". But when 30-40% of the key questions of a discipline look "Uninteristing", it is not a great endorsement for it.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 06:18:19PM 5 points [-]

Other: I often find these sorts of questions useful as a way of clarifying my own understanding of related subjects, and I think clarifying understanding can lead to pragmatic value even in the absence of an agreed-upon answer.

That is, sometimes it is useful to go from "I am confused about X" to "there are three possibilities (X1, X2, X3) and I know what each one entails but I don't know how to choose among them", even though the question remains equally unanswered.

This is similar to your "interesting debate" option, I suppose, but different enough that I felt uncomfortable picking it.

Comment author: Protagoras 26 September 2012 04:47:57PM *  53 points [-]

One respect in which Less Wrongers resemble mainstream philosophers is that many mainstream philosophers disparage mainstream philosophers and emphasize the divergence between their beliefs and those of rival mainstream philosophers. Indeed, that is something of a tradition in Western philosophy.

Comment author: bramflakes 26 September 2012 04:47:20PM 1 point [-]

I think for future polls like this, mandate in the OP that all comments about questions be ROT13ed in order to avoid priming future respondents.

Comment author: DanArmak 26 September 2012 04:52:56PM 6 points [-]

That would be too cumbersome to use for the commenters.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 08:27:23PM 2 points [-]

Agreed. I would be OK with having two posts, though, one of which is for discussion which people can therefore ignore until they've voted.

That said, this whole site primes people for some of these questions.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 September 2012 04:33:10PM 12 points [-]

Stop saying these questions are false dichotomies! None of them are, because they all have an 'other' option!

Comment author: gwern 26 September 2012 03:38:12PM 6 points [-]

Hopefully some of these questions will be folded into Yvain's yearly survey.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 September 2012 03:16:17PM *  37 points [-]

I've posted brief explanations for some of the questions as replies to those questions. I haven't posted explanations for those questions that I believe the vast majority of LW users will understand. If you don't understand a question, I'm fairly certain that if you scroll down far enough you'll find a comment from me with an attempt at explication.

Comment author: komponisto 27 September 2012 03:55:08PM *  1 point [-]

If you don't understand a question, I'm fairly certain that if you scroll down far enough you'll find a comment from me with an attempt at explication.

Unfortunately, I didn't on the libertarianism/egalitarianism one. (I had a plausible guess, but I wanted to be sure that guess was right.)

Comment author: Document 26 September 2012 09:12:03PM *  1 point [-]

While that improves the situation, we're still trusting that the PhilPapers respondents' beliefs about the terms perfectly match the definitions you posted. Too bad we can't survey both groups ourselves (or something).

Comment author: shminux 26 September 2012 03:38:15PM *  8 points [-]

Thanks for the clarifications, without them the questions made little sense to me. (Well, with them most polls appear poorly defined false dichotomy, but at least this unfortunate fact becomes clear).

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 26 September 2012 02:55:01PM 14 points [-]

It would be interesting to have "how well do you think you understand the question?" parallel to each question. I'd imagine less consistency on questions where most participants had to look up the terms on Wikipedia prior to answering.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 September 2012 01:53:27AM 2 points [-]

It would be interesting to have "how well do you think you understand the question?" parallel to each question. I'd imagine less consistency on questions where most participants had to look up the terms on Wikipedia prior to answering.

I won't object to people attaching polls to my poll comments, but I won't make a precommitment to making use of them in my analysis of the results.

Comment author: DanArmak 26 September 2012 02:55:00PM *  0 points [-]

Retracted. Sorry. Didn't read post properly.

Comment author: jimrandomh 26 September 2012 02:19:07PM 4 points [-]

It's too late now, but if you put all the questions in the same comment then it's less work to vote in all of them and you can see correlations between answers to the different questions.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 26 September 2012 02:20:23PM 1 point [-]

Yes, but then how would you handle the "Other" options?

Comment author: jimrandomh 26 September 2012 03:16:55PM 1 point [-]

They'd end up less organized, buy you could still ask people to comment; they'd just have to say which answer went with which 'Other' option.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 05:36:11PM 4 points [-]

I prefer the current approach; I am not answering the questions all at once.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 26 September 2012 02:05:16PM 1 point [-]

Personal identity: physical view or psychological view?

Submitting...

Comment author: Nisan 27 September 2012 10:52:58AM 0 points [-]

Psychological view: This question is standing in for a particular question of values. Otherwise it's meaningless.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 27 September 2012 05:14:46AM 2 points [-]

Other: I suspect the answer to this question depends on the particular question you're asking. Often, I think, this is a values question - e.g. in what form do I want to continue existing?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 26 September 2012 11:59:54PM 7 points [-]

Other: Leaning toward a causal view. In other words, your past self has to be the cause of your future self, but the specific atoms are irrelevant.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 September 2012 11:46:23AM 1 point [-]

This confuses me. I'm a bunch of LessWrong posts?

I voted Accept: psychological view.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 02:51:23AM 3 points [-]

Holy crap! I'm identical with my kid!

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 27 September 2012 03:29:45PM 2 points [-]

Causal descent is a necessary but not sufficient condition, just like a QM-ignorant "physicalist" doesn't necessarily believe that if I grind you up and make a new person out of those "particular particles", it is the same person just in virtue of being made out the "same particles". Not that there's any such thing as the "same particles" in modern physics, just waves in a particle field, etc.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 04:17:28PM 2 points [-]

Right, but causal descent is common to the physical and psychological views. 'Physicalism' among philosophers generally doesn't refer to some kind of 'same atoms' view. That's an incoherent view long before we bring in considerations of quantum physics, and the 'same particles' issue. Mostly that kind of physicalism is restricted to people who are wrong on the internet.

Physicalism among (most) philosophers who hold that view is the claim that your identity is tied to a particular animal (or whatever hardware) that has physical persistance conditions (like the processes which keep it alive, etc.). If you create an atom-for-atom duplicate of that animal, and then kill one of the two of them, you haven't therefore killed both of them. They're not identical in that sense, and that's the sense of 'identity' that physicalists are calling personal identity.

So nothing about quantum physics, so far as I can see, makes a difference to this question.

Comment author: Thomas 27 September 2012 06:41:56AM 0 points [-]

Holly crap, identical withe everybody ever lived. Except those of course, who were not self aware. If such exist.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 02:34:09AM 1 point [-]

Voted other for essentially this reason. Still very confused about this question.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 September 2012 12:13:13AM 1 point [-]

Based on pragmatist's interpretation, this sounds like the physical view.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 07:12:48AM 2 points [-]

It sounds like the psychological view to me, although I guess that depends on what Eliezer means by "self".

Comment author: Mutasir 26 September 2012 10:51:01PM *  2 points [-]

Physical view/other (?). I consider personal identity to be based only on the memory of past self, not actual brain process or existence of memory independent conscious mind. It may be very well that the experience of personal continuity is only an illusion as there is no actual continuity at all, only the recollection of previous events (including the attempts of introspection). An exact copy of me wouldn't be any different than myself.

Comment author: asparisi 26 September 2012 08:40:38PM 2 points [-]

Other: I think that personal identity is in a certain sort of brain process, rather than a static "brain state." (so, no "static minds") The physical view implies that personal identity can be reduced to certain brain states, and I reject that: a valid sort of active processing is important.

Comment author: magfrump 26 September 2012 06:15:26PM 1 point [-]

Other: Psychological states include some bodily states like sensory input, and possibly as much as "social contact." There is no firm boundary between physical and psychological. Uploads are possible, but will require emulation of more than just a brain. An atom-by-atom instantiation of the same mind (including enough of the body and environment) will be the same person.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 September 2012 04:25:06PM 7 points [-]

I answered "lean toward psychological view", as I'm about evenly split between the psychological view and just considering the whole concept of personal identity incoherent/a wrong question in the first place.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 September 2012 05:52:22PM *  -1 points [-]

Same. I think I might possibly be describable as more of an anticriterian than anything else.

Comment author: Caerbannog 26 September 2012 03:19:12PM 2 points [-]

Other: For everyone else that I observe, an exact atom-for-atom duplicate is the same person as the original. If a copy of me were made, my 'mind' would reside in the original.

I accept that my duplicate would claim to be the original, of course.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 05:35:33PM 3 points [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the original" here.

Suppose the atom-for-atom duplicate were constructed (for sound technical reasons) inside a duplication chamber, and it came to awareness inside that chamber. Would it claim that it had somehow had been swapped into the chamber and the duplicate swapped out, without it noticing? Or would it acknowledge that it had been constructed in the duplication chamber, but claim to be the original nonetheless?

Comment author: Caerbannog 26 September 2012 07:10:39PM 1 point [-]

Whether the duplicate claimed to be the original or not depends on the individual, I suppose.

If I lived in a world that contained such duplication chambers, and found myself waking up in one, I would not know whether I was "the copy" or not without some outside evidence. I'd be inclined to accept that either I was a copy, or someone was playing a trick on me to make me think so.

I understand that the duplicate would have the same memories and personality as me, but would not have my subjective sense of experience.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 07:22:50PM 0 points [-]

OK, now I'm confused.

You said in this case you'd be inclined to accept that either you were a copy, or someone was playing a trick on me to make you think so. Which makes sense.

Would your duplicate be equally inclined to do the same thing in the same case?

If so... then why would your duplicate claim to be the original?
If not... what accounts for the difference?

Comment author: Caerbannog 26 September 2012 07:40:08PM 1 point [-]

Yes, my duplicate would think the same way as me.

In a world that has duplicators, my duplicate would not claim to be original without evidence one way or the other.

In our real world, if a copy of me were made using "magic", both versions would believe themselves to be the original (at least at first). I had this kind of very specific scenario in mind when I said both would claim to be original, but did not explain this in the earlier comment (inferential distance and all that).

Comment author: [deleted] 26 September 2012 04:54:33PM 2 points [-]

That's not 'other', that's the psychological view (assuming you would still say they're the same person if one was duplicated minus a left pinky).

Comment author: Caerbannog 26 September 2012 07:24:27PM -1 points [-]

I don't know: If someone I knew had their physical body destroyed but they were uploaded with complete accuracy, I would consider them to be the same person (consistent with psychological view). I would not opt for that procedure for myself, though, because I don't accept that my upload would really be me (more like physical view).

I'm open to evidence and argument on this, though.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 September 2012 12:28:07PM 2 points [-]

If someone I knew had their physical body destroyed but they were uploaded with complete accuracy, I would consider them to be the same person (consistent with psychological view) [...] I don't accept that my upload would really be me (more like physical view).

This is consistent how?

Comment author: Caerbannog 27 September 2012 03:46:50PM 0 points [-]

I can observe myself in a way I that can't others.

From my vantage point, a copy or upload of someone else behaves the same as the 'original'. From that same vantage point, a newly created copy of myself is clearly 'outside' my mind and therefore observationally different.

Comment author: MugaSofer 28 September 2012 07:53:13AM 0 points [-]

But surely the copy is as much the same person as the "you" of five minutes ago as the original?

Comment author: Caerbannog 28 September 2012 02:37:41PM -1 points [-]

To you and everyone else, but not to me.

Comment author: MugaSofer 30 September 2012 02:15:33PM *  1 point [-]

They may not be you(now), but if you count yourself as the same person as you(earlier), then they have to be the same person as you(earlier) as well. I think.

Comment author: Caerbannog 01 October 2012 02:13:48AM 1 point [-]

A newly created copy or electronic upload of me (call him 'Copy B') would have all my behavioral attributes and memories. He could be called $myName by anyone else observing either of us (we could be indistinguishable to a third observer).

However, to me (the guy writing this response, call me 'Copy A'), there would be an obvious observable difference between Copy A and Copy B. I see the world from Copy A's point of view, with his eyes and ears and I would observe Copy B from the outside as I would any other person, without knowing what is going on in his mind or experiencing the world from his point of view. Yes, Copy B might say the same about Copy A, but it's my fear that Copy A would never find himself genuinely waking up inside a copying chamber or as an upload. If that's true, uploading myself would be the death of my subjective point of view.

I get where you're coming from. I don't necessarily have an epiphenomenal view of the mind, but I also believe that the concept of qualia is not well understood by anyone. I do not understand why I'm me and not someone else, and neither does our current knowledge on the subject.

Based on this I'm agnostic on whether mind uploading in the style we're discussing would really preserve me and my stream of qualia, or kill me and create another person with a new stream of qualia. Without any evidence that it would preserve me, I would not accept going through such a process.

There are possible scenarios in which the copying process could preserve what I consider to be me: For example, if there is only one observer at all, who experiences all qualia streams throughout the world (that possibility scares me, honestly). Another possibility might be that copying me would simply double my measure in the world, and what I consider my qualia stream would have twice as many experiences after the copying process. These are just speculation, though.

This has definitely been an interesting discussion for me. Examining my thoughts on this subject has raised more possible interpretations than settled anything, though!

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 02:52:07PM 2 points [-]

Well, I'm not obligated to use the same standards for myself as other people.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 September 2012 02:53:33PM 16 points [-]

Physical view: The maintenance of personal identity requires bodily continuity. So, for instance, one cannot preserve a person by downloading their psychological state into a computer.

Psychological view: The maintenance of personal identity requires continuity of psychological states. As long as there is a continuing stream of psychological states with the appropriate causal relations between them, the person persists.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 05:31:10PM *  5 points [-]

I answered "psychological", but I should perhaps note that I don't understand "continuing" to imply "uninterrupted". I have no problem with the idea of a personal identity that is shut down for a while before being booted back up (with its internal state saved), or one that is computed on a timesharing system.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 September 2012 05:38:30PM *  2 points [-]

Yeah, I should have clarified. "Continuity" here does not mean temporal continuity; it means causal continuity. Future states are appropriately causally related to past states. So if I disintegrate right now, and simultaneously, by some bizarre chance, an atom-for-atom duplicate of me is produced by a thermal fluctuation on Mars, that duplicate would not be me, since the appropriate causal connections between my psychological state and his are lacking.

Comment author: faul_sname 26 September 2012 07:23:13PM 1 point [-]

So where does the information to build the copy of you on Mars come from? It's all fine and well to say "thermal noise" but if you allow for brains to be built from thermal noise with any sort of frequency, you end up with the bigger philosophical problem of Boltzmann brains. Unless you're proposing a mechanism by which the brain in question is your brain, in which case you've reintroduced causality.

Comment author: pragmatist 27 September 2012 07:11:46AM *  1 point [-]

It's all fine and well to say "thermal noise" but if you allow for brains to be built from thermal noise with any sort of frequency, you end up with the bigger philosophical problem of Boltzmann brains.

I agree that Boltzmann brains are a philosophical problem, but they're a problem precisely because our current best physical theories tell us that brains can fluctuate into existence. I don't think the right way to deal with the problem is to say, "Boltzmann brains are problematic, so let's just deny that they can exist."

Comment author: faul_sname 28 September 2012 05:47:40AM 1 point [-]

but they're a problem precisely because our current best physical theories tell us that brains can fluctuate into existence.

Yes, but our current best physical theories also mean that they probably fluctuate into existence considerably less often than they form under normal circumstances (human brains, at least). A mind is a complex thing, so the amount of information it takes to replicate a mind is probably far higher than the amount of information it takes to specify an environment likely to give rise to a mind. If you discard the causal process that gives rise to minds in practice and postulate thermal noise as the cause instead, you end up postulating Boltzmann brains as well.

I didn't mean that Boltzmann brains are a particularly big philosophical problem, just that they become one when you try to do philosophy where you postulate very specific things occurring by "random chance".

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 September 2012 05:46:55PM 5 points [-]

Hm.

My instinct is to say that I don't require causal continuity either... e.g., to say that if I appeared on Mars I would consider myself to still be the person who used to exist on Earth, despite the lack of causal connection.
That said, I don't really take that instinct seriously, since I'm incapable of actually imagining this happening without positing a causal connection I just don't happen to be aware of. The alternative is... well, unimaginable.

So, I dunno. Maybe I do require continuity in that sense, I'm just willing to posit it for any sufficiently complex system.

Comment author: DanArmak 26 September 2012 02:58:54PM 2 points [-]

That's not how I understood the question. Now it turns out my vote is wrong.

I should not have voted without understanding the question fully. But if I read the survey where the questions are taken from, I will probably also learn what is considered there to be the mainstream position, which will bias my answers.