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ArisKatsaris comments on Is xkcd "Think Logically" talking about this site? - Less Wrong
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Comments (33)
I don't think this deserves its own top level discussion post and I suspect most of the downvotes are for this reason. Maybe use the open thread next time?
I downvoted because one of the chiefly repeated themes of the sequences and LW is that rationality is about winning, not about following your preconceptions about what logic means to your defeat, nor about making excuses.
It's insulting and rather ignorant that summerstay associated LW with the type of person Munroe was mocking. That type of person is pretty much the opposite of what LW is about.
It is certainly the opposite of our ideal. Practice sometimes falls short.
"Falling short" means not finishing first in the race. This is more like running in the opposite direction.
Whatever. Here's a recent example of the error.
Look, I like Less Wrong. It's fun. But if you want to have an influence on the world, you need to engage with the discussions the professionals are having. You need to publish in scientific journals. You need to play the game that's out there well enough to win. I don't think people should feel insulted by my suggesting this. Getting insulted by ideas that make us uncomfortable isn't what I feel this place is about.
But this is a different critique, isn't it? Not being able to significantly influence the world for whatever reasons is one thing, being a strawman rationalist with a silly conception of "logic" is another thing. You may be right that LW isn't a highly influential community, but that's not what the linked xkcd is about.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the linked xkcd, or maybe I am. The way I see it, It's not about misusing the word "logic." It's about people coming in from the outside, thinking that just because they are smart, they know how to solve problems in a field that they are completely inexperienced in, and have spent very little time thinking about compared to those who think about it as a full time job.
I don't disagree about the intended message of the linked xkcd. By a "strawman rationalist with a silly conception of logic" I meant exactly that: a person who assumes that every problem can be solved by "logical thinking" and underestimates the role of expertise. (Since logic alone in the proper sense isn't sufficient to produce results - right or wrong - except in small subclass of problems, this attitude needs some abuse of the word "logic", if one indeed uses the phrase "to think logically" to denote one's own behaviour. But that's besides the point.)
The disagreement arises when you claim that the described failure mode is typical for LW. To me it seems more typical for the rather ordinary sort of crackpots who think they can do everything better than anybody else and when they lose in a direct competition they claim that the rules have been stacked against them (another part the xkcd is mocking). To show that LW is like this, it doesn't suffice to point out that we (for whatever meaning of we) aren't enough influential. You have additionally to show that we are unaware of the difficulties or are finding inane excuses for our lack of success.
Edit: to further clarify, I don't treat LW as means of influencing the world.
If I was remotely interested in taking what you say personally the offense I would take is regarding the presumptive condescension. I imagine the phrase "No shit!" may even spring to mind.
It's one thing to believe LW isn't immune to such failures to win, it's another thing to suggest that Rundall Munroe had us specifically in mind when he was writing this.
If you are to offer the first criticism, perhaps you oughtn't present it as a criticism specifically targetted to us by Rundall Munroe.
I thought that Randall Munroe might be talking about LW, but I wasn't sure, so I asked if anyone else had the same impression. At least one other person did. Most people didn't.