ArisKatsaris comments on EY "Politics is the Mind Killer" sighting at Washington Examiner and Reason.com - Less Wrong

19 Post author: buybuydandavis 27 September 2012 07:48PM

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Comment author: ArisKatsaris 28 September 2012 02:21:41PM 3 points [-]

Do you think that most people would choose to define "politics" as "strongly felt affiliations with powerful groups that gain their power from our affiliation, but are too big to actually consider our preferences when using their power" ?

The purpose of tabooing words ought be to disentangle confusing connotations that the original word had. You seem to have chosen to add connotations. You may argue that politics leads to such "strongly felt affiliations" to such "powerful groups", but damn, that's a different thing from just defining politics to be such.

Comment author: khafra 28 September 2012 03:48:07PM 0 points [-]

Dictionary.com lays out several definitions:

  1. the science or art of political government.
  2. the practice or profession of conducting political affairs.
  3. political affairs: The advocated reforms have become embroiled in politics.
  4. political methods or maneuvers: We could not approve of his politics in winning passage of the bill.
  5. political principles or opinions: We avoided discussion of religion and politics. His politics are his own affair.

As well as an idiomatic definition which is closer to the way the word is often used by LW members who also read Moldbug:

play politics, a. to engage in political intrigue, take advantage of a political situation or issue, resort to partisan politics, etc.; exploit a political system or political relationships.

b. to deal with people in an opportunistic, manipulative, or devious way, as for job advancement.

I believe that definition #5 is clearly what Eliezer is talking about when he says "politics is the mind-killer." h-H is talking about #1, #2, and possibly #3 and #4.

I'm not saying my suggested rephrasing is what most people mean by "politics." But I don't believe anybody is saying that the art or science of political government is the mind-killer.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 28 September 2012 04:43:43PM 6 points [-]

FWIW, I've always understood the referent for "politics" in "politics is the mind-killer" to be, not political principles or opinions (which in fact get discussed here all the time, typically civilly and sometimes usefully), but tribal affiliation with powerful governmental/nationalist camps. I often refer to it as "partisan politics" for that reason, and around here I sometimes refer to it as "Blue/Green politics." (Both formulations of which neglect the nationalist aspect, but not for any principled reason, just for convenience. If the Blue/Green teaching-story had included a neighboring nation known as the "Purples," I might refer to it as "Blue/Green/Purple" politics.)

We would presumably find partisan religious discussion equally problematic if we didn't already filter for alignment with a particular camp.
We do find sex/gender discussion problematic, I think for similar reasons, and would find it much more so Less Wrong didn't filter for a particular gender.
We similarly find race/ethnicity discussion problematic, though for the most part it doesn't come up... there's one member who periodically talks about how some races are superior to others, and that causes a certain amount of turbulence before it dies down.
Etc.

In general, if we believe there are powerful groups or entities fighting for control over large-scale decisions that affect our lives, we tend to pick a side and invest emotionally in supporting whatever positions are conventionally associated with that side, and signalling considerations start to predominate. This makes analysis difficult.

Comment author: TimS 28 September 2012 06:23:39PM *  7 points [-]

Partisan politics is too narrow - some "political concepts" become enmeshed in one's personal identity even if they are irrelevant to whether the community organizer or the business executive should be President of the United States.

Consider how and why the "creepiness" and "feminism" discussions broke down so badly, so quickly, and so acrimoniously.

In short, Paul Graham is right when he says (essentially) "Personal identity is the mindkiller"

Comment author: TheOtherDave 28 September 2012 07:58:48PM 3 points [-]

Yeah, I agree that we find sex/gender discussions problematic for similar reasons.

Comment author: khafra 28 September 2012 05:58:01PM 0 points [-]

I agree. I should have said "definition #5 is clearly the closest to what Eliezer is talking about." As my suggested tabooing phrase indicates, I think "affiliations that don't pay rent" are the problem.