yli comments on The Useful Idea of Truth - Less Wrong

77 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 October 2012 06:16PM

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Comment author: yli 02 October 2012 02:22:42PM *  25 points [-]

I don't like the "post-utopian" example. I can totally expect differing sensory experiences depending on whether a writer is post-utopian or not. For example, if they're post-utopian, when reading their biography I would more strongly expect reading about them having been into utopian ideas when they were young, but having then changed their mind. And when reading their works, I would more strongly expect seeing themes of the imperfectability of the world and weltschmerz.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 03 October 2012 09:32:29PM 6 points [-]

I've edited the OP to try and compartmentalize off the example a bit more.

Comment author: TimS 03 October 2012 10:12:34PM 1 point [-]

Do you also think the label "Impressionist painter" is meaningless?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 03 October 2012 10:29:07PM 5 points [-]

I have no idea what Impressionism is (I am not necessarily proud of this ignorance, since for all I know it does mean something important). Do you think that a panel of artists would be able to tell who was and wasn't "Impressionist" and mostly agree with each other? That does seem like a good criterion for whether there's sensory data that they're reacting to.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 04 October 2012 05:21:42AM *  13 points [-]

Apparently even computers agree with those judgments (or at least cluster "impressionists" in their own group - I didn't read the paper, but I expect that the cluster labels were added manually).

ETA: Got the paper. Excerpts:

The dataset includes 994 paintings representing 34 painters, such that each painter has at least 19 images in the dataset. The painters represent several different schools of art such as Early, High, and Northern Renaissance, Mannerism, Baroque, Rococo, Romanticism, Impressionism, Post and Neo Impressionism, Abstract Expressionism, Surrealism, and Fauvism, as commonly defined by art historians. The images were downloaded from various online sources, and normalized to a size of 640,000 pixels while preserving the original aspect ratio. The paintings that were selected for the experiment are assumed to be all in their original condition.

[...] To make the analysis more meaningful for comparing similarities between artistic styles of painters, we selected for each painter paintings that reflect the signature artistic style of that painter. For instance, in Wassily Kandinsky collection we included only paintings representing his abstract expressionism signature artistic style, and did not include his earlier work such as “The-Blue-Rider”, which embodies a different artistic style.

The dataset is used such that in each run 17 different paintings per artist are randomly selected to determine the Fisher discriminant scores of the features, and two images from each painter are used to determine the distances between the images using the WND method [Shamir 2008; Shamir et al. 2008, 2009, 2010]. The experiment is repeated automatically 100 times, and the arithmetic means of the distances across all runs are computed. [...]

The image analysis method is based on the WND-CHARM scheme [Shamir 2008; Shamir et al. 2008], which was originally developed for biomedical image analysis [Shamir et al. 2008, 2009]. The CHARM [Shamir, 2008; Shamir et al. 2010] set of numerical image content descriptors is a comprehensive set of 4027 features that reflect very many aspects of the visual content such as shapes (Euler number, Otsu binary object statistics), textures (Haralick, Tamura), edges (Prewitt gradient statistics), colors [Shamir 2006], statistical distribution of the pixel intensities (multiscale histograms, first four moments), fractal features [Wu et al. 1992], and polynomial decomposition of the image (Chebyshev statistics). These content descriptors are described more thoroughly in Shamir [2008] and Shamir et al. [2008, 2009, 2010]. This scheme of numerical image content descriptors was originally developed for complex morphological analysis of biomedical imaging, but was also found useful for the analysis of visual art [Shamir et al. 2010; Shamir 2012].

An important feature of the set of numerical image content descriptors is that the color descriptors are based on a first step of classifying each pixel into one of 10 color classes based on a fuzzy logic model that mimics the human intuition of colors [Shamir 2006]. This transformation to basic color classes ensures that further analysis of the color information is not sensitive to specific pigments that were not available to some of the classical painters in the dataset, or to the condition and restoration of some of the older paintings used in this study.

[...] As the figure shows, the classical artists are placed in the lower part of the phylogeny, while the modern artists are clustered in the upper part. A clear distinction between those groups at the center reflects the difference between classical realism and modern artistic styles that evolved during and after the 19th century.

Inside those two broad groups, it is noticeable that the computer was able to correctly cluster artists that belong in the same artistic movements, and placed these clusters on the graph in a fashion that is largely in agreement with the analysis of art historians. For instance, the bottom center cluster includes the High Renaissance artists Raphael, Da Vinci, and Michelangelo, indicating that the computer analysis could identify that these artists belong in the same school of art and have similar artistic styles [O’Mahony 2006].

The Early Renaissance artists Ghirlandaio, Francesca, and Botticelli are clustered together left to the High Renaissance painters, and the Northern Renaissance artists Bruegel, Van Eyck, and Durer are placed above the High Renaissance. Further to the right, close the High Renaissance, the algorithm placed three painters associated with the Mannerism movement, Veronese, Tintoretto, and El Greco, who were inspired by Renaissance artists such as Michelangelo [O’Mahony 2006]. Below the Mannerism painters the algorithm automatically grouped three Baroque artists, Vermeer, Rubens, and Rembrandt. Interestingly, Goya, Rococo, and Romanticism artist is placed between the Mannerism and the Baroque schools. The Romanticism artists, Gericault and Delacroix, who were inspired by Baroque painters such as Rubens [Gariff 2008], are clustered next to the Baroque group.

The upper part of the phylogeny features the modern artists. The Abstract Expressionists Kandinsky, Rothko, and Pollock are grouped together, as it has been shown that abstract paintings can be automatically differentiated from figural paintings with high accuracy [Shamir et al. 2010]. Surrealists Dali, Ernst, and de Chirico are also clustered by the computer analysis. An interesting observation is Fauvists Matisse and Derain are placed close to each other, between the Neo Impressionists and Abstract Expressionists clusters.

The neighboring clusters of Neo Impressionists Seurat and Signac and Post Impressionists Cezanne and Gauguin are also in agreement with the perception of art historians, as well as the cluster of Impressionists Renoir and Monet. These two artists are placed close to Vincent Van Gogh, who is associated with the Post Impressionism artistic movement. The separation of Van Gogh from the other Post Impressionist painters can be explained by the influence of Monet and Renoir on his artistic style [Walther and Metzger 2006], or by his unique painting style reflected by low-level image features that are similar to the style of Jackson Pollock [Shamir 2012], and could affect the automatic placement of Van Gogh on the phylogeny.

Comment author: TimS 03 October 2012 10:39:44PM 8 points [-]

I'm no art geek, but Impressionism is an art "movement" from the late 1800s. A variety of artists (Monet, Renoir, etc) began using similar visual styles that influenced what they decided to paint and how they depicted images.

Art critics think that artistic "movements" are a meaningful way of analyzing paintings, approximately at the level of usefulness that a biologist might apply to "species" or "genus." Or historian of philosophy might talk about the school of thought know today as "Logical Positivism."

Do you think movements is a reasonable unit of analysis (in art, in literature, in philosophy)? If no, why not? If yes, why are you so hostile to the usage of labels like "post-utopian" or "post-colonialist"?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 05 October 2012 10:50:24AM *  4 points [-]

Art critics think that artistic "movements" are a meaningful way of analyzing paintings, approximately at the level of usefulness that a biologist might apply to "species" or "genus."

The pictures made within an artistic movement have something similar. We should classify them by that something, not only by the movement. Although the name of the movement can be used as a convenient label for the given cluster of picture-space.

If I give you a picture made by unknown author, you can't classify it by author's participation in given movements. But you can classify it by the contents of the picture itself. So even if we use the movement as a label for the cluster, it is better if we can also describe typical properties of picture within that cluster.

Just like when you find a random dog on a street, you can classify it as "dog" species, without taking a time machine and finding out whether the ancestors of this specific dogs really were domesticated wolves. You can teach "dogs are domesticated wolves" at school, but this is not how you recognize dogs in real life.

So how exactly would you recognize "impressionist" paintings, or "post-utopian" books in real life, when the author is unknown? Without teaching this, you are not truly teaching impressionism or post-utopianism.

(In case of "impressionism", my rule of thumb is that the picture looks nice and realistic from distance, but when you stand close to it, the details become somehow ugly. My interpretation of "impressionism" is: work of authors who obviously realized that milimeter precision for a wall painting is an overkill, and you can make pictures faster and cheaper if you just optimize it for looking correct from a typical viewing distance.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 05 October 2012 02:12:58PM 2 points [-]

I agree with you that there are immediately obvious properties that I use to classify an object into a category, without reference to various other historical and systemic facts about the object. For example, as you say, I might classify a work of art as impressionist based on the precision with which it is rendered, or classify an animal as a dog based on various aspects of its appearance and behavior, or classify food as nutritious based on color, smell, and so forth.

It doesn't follow that it's somehow better to do so than to classify the object based on the less obvious historical or systemic facts.

If I categorize an object as nutritious based on those superficial properties, and later perform a lab analysis and discover that the object will kill me if I eat it, I will likely consider my initial categorization a mistake.

If I share your rule of thumb about "impressionism", and then later realize that some works of art that share the property of being best viewed from a distance are consistently classed by art students as "pointilist" rather than "impressionist", and I further realize that when I look at a bunch of classed-as-pointilist and classed-as-impressionist paintings it's clear to me that paintings in each class share a family resemblance that they don't share with paintings in the other class, I will likely consider my initial rule of thumb a mistake.

Sometimes, the categorization I perform based on properties that aren't immediately apparent is more reliable than the one I perform "in real life."

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 October 2012 06:20:21PM 1 point [-]

Is this actually a standard term? I was trying to make up a new one, without having to actually delve into the pits of darkness and find a real postmodern literary term that doesn't mean anything.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 October 2012 06:48:53PM *  15 points [-]

I don't think you can avoid the criticism of "literary terms actually do tend to make one expect differing sensory experiences, and your characterization of the field is unfair" simply by inventing a term which isn't actually in use. I don't know whether "post-utopian" is actually a standard term, but yli's comment doesn't depend on it being one.

Comment author: thomblake 02 October 2012 06:43:37PM 4 points [-]

Well, there are a lot of hits for "post-utopian" on Google, and they don't seem to be references to you.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 October 2012 06:46:29PM 3 points [-]

I think there were fewer Google references back when I first made up the word... I will happily accept nominations for either an equally portentous-sounding but unused term, or a portentous-sounding real literary term that is known not to mean anything.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 October 2012 07:43:02PM 13 points [-]

Has anyone ever told you your writing style is Alucentian to the core? Especially in the way your municardist influences constrain the transactional nuances of your structural ephamthism.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 October 2012 09:03:31PM 4 points [-]

This looks promising. Is it real, or did you verify that the words don't mean anything standard?

Comment author: Jonathan_Elmer 02 October 2012 07:32:24PM 6 points [-]

Coming up with a made up word will not solve this problem. If the word describes the content of the author's stories then there will be sensory experiences that a reader can expect when reading those stories.

Comment author: Scottbert 03 October 2012 04:35:09PM 4 points [-]

I think the idea is that the hypothetical teacher is making students memorize passwords instead of teaching the meaning of the concept.

Comment author: lukeprog 11 January 2013 07:15:29AM *  2 points [-]

post-catalytic
psycho-elemental
anti-ludic
anarcho-hegemonic
desublimational

Comment author: fubarobfusco 11 January 2013 12:36:50PM 1 point [-]

"Cogno-intellectual" was the catchphrase for this when I was in school. See Abrahams et al.:

We invite you to take part in a large-scale language experiment. It concerns the word "cogno-intellectual." This noble word can be used as an adjective or as a noun. We just invented it. The fact that "cogno-intellectual" has no meaning makes it a useful word. Meaning nothing, it can be used for anything.

Here is the experiment. Use the word "cogno-intellectual" in written and oral communications with colleagues, especially with colleagues whom you do not know well. If you are a student, use it with your most impressable teachers. If you are a teacher, use it with your most impressable administrators. Use it at meetings. Use it with significant strangers. Use it with abandon. Use it with panache. The main thing is: use it.

Comment author: BerryPick6 11 January 2013 12:44:33PM *  3 points [-]

To see the word used spectacularly, check out this paper: www.es.ele.tue.nl/~tbasten/fun/rhetoric_logic.pdf

Comment author: lukeprog 11 January 2013 05:39:10PM 1 point [-]

LW comments use the Markdown syntax.

Comment author: MugaSofer 11 January 2013 02:38:51PM -2 points [-]

Was that meant to be a link?

Comment author: BerryPick6 11 January 2013 03:06:54PM 0 points [-]

It was. I can't get the 'show help' menu to pop-up, so I feel frustratingly inept right now. :)

Comment author: MugaSofer 13 January 2013 10:36:11AM *  0 points [-]

Put the text you want to display in square brackets, and the URL you want to go to in regular brackets. That should do it.

Comment author: thomblake 02 October 2012 07:42:31PM 2 points [-]

I don't think literature has any equivalent to metasyntactic variables. Still, placeholder names might help - perhaps they are examples of "post-kadigan" literature?

Comment author: [deleted] 02 October 2012 08:16:21PM *  0 points [-]
Comment author: thomblake 03 October 2012 02:00:29PM 1 point [-]

I think those might all be real terms.

Comment author: DaFranker 03 October 2012 02:19:23PM -1 points [-]

I think most literature teachers I've had would ignore the question entirely and use all those terms anyway with whatever meaning they thought fits best.

Comment author: novalis 02 October 2012 08:16:41PM *  26 points [-]

Maybe you should reconsider picking on an entire field you know nothing about?

I'm not saying this to defend postmodernism, which I know almost nothing about, but to point out that the Sokal hoax is not really enough reason to reject an entire field (any more than the Bogdanov affair is for physics).

I'm pointing out that you're neglecting the virtues of curiosity and humility, at least.

And this is leaving aside that there is no particular reason for "post-utopian" to be a postmodern as opposed to modern term; categorizing writers into movements has been a standard tool of literary analysis for ages (unsurprisingly, since people love putting things into categories).

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2012 04:36:14PM 13 points [-]

At this point, getting in cheap jabs at post-modernism and philosophy wherever possible is a well-honored LessWrong tradition. Can't let the Greens win!

Comment author: yli 03 October 2012 02:09:57AM *  2 points [-]

Is this actually a standard term?

I have no idea, I just interpreted it in an obvious way.

Comment author: Scottbert 03 October 2012 04:32:12PM *  2 points [-]

I share this interpretation, but I always figured in Eliezer's examples the hypothetical professor was so obsessed with passwords or sounding knowledgeable that they didn't bother to teach the meaning of 'post-utopian', and might even have forgotten it. Or they were teaching to the test, but if this is a college class there is no standard test, so they're following some kind of doubly-lost purpose.

Or it could be that the professor is passing down passwords they were taught as a student themselves. A word must have had some meaning when it was created, but if most people treat it as a password it won't constrain their expectations.

Also, I like that the comment system correctly interpreted my use of underbars to mean italics. I've been using that convention in plaintext for 15 years or so, glad to see someone agrees with it!