yli comments on The Useful Idea of Truth - Less Wrong
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I don't like the "post-utopian" example. I can totally expect differing sensory experiences depending on whether a writer is post-utopian or not. For example, if they're post-utopian, when reading their biography I would more strongly expect reading about them having been into utopian ideas when they were young, but having then changed their mind. And when reading their works, I would more strongly expect seeing themes of the imperfectability of the world and weltschmerz.
I've edited the OP to try and compartmentalize off the example a bit more.
Do you also think the label "Impressionist painter" is meaningless?
I have no idea what Impressionism is (I am not necessarily proud of this ignorance, since for all I know it does mean something important). Do you think that a panel of artists would be able to tell who was and wasn't "Impressionist" and mostly agree with each other? That does seem like a good criterion for whether there's sensory data that they're reacting to.
Apparently even computers agree with those judgments (or at least cluster "impressionists" in their own group - I didn't read the paper, but I expect that the cluster labels were added manually).
ETA: Got the paper. Excerpts:
I'm no art geek, but Impressionism is an art "movement" from the late 1800s. A variety of artists (Monet, Renoir, etc) began using similar visual styles that influenced what they decided to paint and how they depicted images.
Art critics think that artistic "movements" are a meaningful way of analyzing paintings, approximately at the level of usefulness that a biologist might apply to "species" or "genus." Or historian of philosophy might talk about the school of thought know today as "Logical Positivism."
Do you think movements is a reasonable unit of analysis (in art, in literature, in philosophy)? If no, why not? If yes, why are you so hostile to the usage of labels like "post-utopian" or "post-colonialist"?
The pictures made within an artistic movement have something similar. We should classify them by that something, not only by the movement. Although the name of the movement can be used as a convenient label for the given cluster of picture-space.
If I give you a picture made by unknown author, you can't classify it by author's participation in given movements. But you can classify it by the contents of the picture itself. So even if we use the movement as a label for the cluster, it is better if we can also describe typical properties of picture within that cluster.
Just like when you find a random dog on a street, you can classify it as "dog" species, without taking a time machine and finding out whether the ancestors of this specific dogs really were domesticated wolves. You can teach "dogs are domesticated wolves" at school, but this is not how you recognize dogs in real life.
So how exactly would you recognize "impressionist" paintings, or "post-utopian" books in real life, when the author is unknown? Without teaching this, you are not truly teaching impressionism or post-utopianism.
(In case of "impressionism", my rule of thumb is that the picture looks nice and realistic from distance, but when you stand close to it, the details become somehow ugly. My interpretation of "impressionism" is: work of authors who obviously realized that milimeter precision for a wall painting is an overkill, and you can make pictures faster and cheaper if you just optimize it for looking correct from a typical viewing distance.)
I agree with you that there are immediately obvious properties that I use to classify an object into a category, without reference to various other historical and systemic facts about the object. For example, as you say, I might classify a work of art as impressionist based on the precision with which it is rendered, or classify an animal as a dog based on various aspects of its appearance and behavior, or classify food as nutritious based on color, smell, and so forth.
It doesn't follow that it's somehow better to do so than to classify the object based on the less obvious historical or systemic facts.
If I categorize an object as nutritious based on those superficial properties, and later perform a lab analysis and discover that the object will kill me if I eat it, I will likely consider my initial categorization a mistake.
If I share your rule of thumb about "impressionism", and then later realize that some works of art that share the property of being best viewed from a distance are consistently classed by art students as "pointilist" rather than "impressionist", and I further realize that when I look at a bunch of classed-as-pointilist and classed-as-impressionist paintings it's clear to me that paintings in each class share a family resemblance that they don't share with paintings in the other class, I will likely consider my initial rule of thumb a mistake.
Sometimes, the categorization I perform based on properties that aren't immediately apparent is more reliable than the one I perform "in real life."
Is this actually a standard term? I was trying to make up a new one, without having to actually delve into the pits of darkness and find a real postmodern literary term that doesn't mean anything.
I don't think you can avoid the criticism of "literary terms actually do tend to make one expect differing sensory experiences, and your characterization of the field is unfair" simply by inventing a term which isn't actually in use. I don't know whether "post-utopian" is actually a standard term, but yli's comment doesn't depend on it being one.
Well, there are a lot of hits for "post-utopian" on Google, and they don't seem to be references to you.
I think there were fewer Google references back when I first made up the word... I will happily accept nominations for either an equally portentous-sounding but unused term, or a portentous-sounding real literary term that is known not to mean anything.
Has anyone ever told you your writing style is Alucentian to the core? Especially in the way your municardist influences constrain the transactional nuances of your structural ephamthism.
This looks promising. Is it real, or did you verify that the words don't mean anything standard?
Coming up with a made up word will not solve this problem. If the word describes the content of the author's stories then there will be sensory experiences that a reader can expect when reading those stories.
I think the idea is that the hypothetical teacher is making students memorize passwords instead of teaching the meaning of the concept.
post-catalytic
psycho-elemental
anti-ludic
anarcho-hegemonic
desublimational
"Cogno-intellectual" was the catchphrase for this when I was in school. See Abrahams et al.:
To see the word used spectacularly, check out this paper: www.es.ele.tue.nl/~tbasten/fun/rhetoric_logic.pdf
LW comments use the Markdown syntax.
Was that meant to be a link?
It was. I can't get the 'show help' menu to pop-up, so I feel frustratingly inept right now. :)
Put the text you want to display in square brackets, and the URL you want to go to in regular brackets. That should do it.
I don't think literature has any equivalent to metasyntactic variables. Still, placeholder names might help - perhaps they are examples of "post-kadigan" literature?
http://codepad.org/H6MaC84M
I think those might all be real terms.
I think most literature teachers I've had would ignore the question entirely and use all those terms anyway with whatever meaning they thought fits best.
Maybe you should reconsider picking on an entire field you know nothing about?
I'm not saying this to defend postmodernism, which I know almost nothing about, but to point out that the Sokal hoax is not really enough reason to reject an entire field (any more than the Bogdanov affair is for physics).
I'm pointing out that you're neglecting the virtues of curiosity and humility, at least.
And this is leaving aside that there is no particular reason for "post-utopian" to be a postmodern as opposed to modern term; categorizing writers into movements has been a standard tool of literary analysis for ages (unsurprisingly, since people love putting things into categories).
At this point, getting in cheap jabs at post-modernism and philosophy wherever possible is a well-honored LessWrong tradition. Can't let the Greens win!
I have no idea, I just interpreted it in an obvious way.
I share this interpretation, but I always figured in Eliezer's examples the hypothetical professor was so obsessed with passwords or sounding knowledgeable that they didn't bother to teach the meaning of 'post-utopian', and might even have forgotten it. Or they were teaching to the test, but if this is a college class there is no standard test, so they're following some kind of doubly-lost purpose.
Or it could be that the professor is passing down passwords they were taught as a student themselves. A word must have had some meaning when it was created, but if most people treat it as a password it won't constrain their expectations.
Also, I like that the comment system correctly interpreted my use of underbars to mean italics. I've been using that convention in plaintext for 15 years or so, glad to see someone agrees with it!