lukeprog comments on Firewalling the Optimal from the Rational - Less Wrong

86 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2012 08:01AM

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Comment author: komponisto 07 October 2012 08:54:35AM *  3 points [-]

Do you have a list of your own favorite pieces from the past 60 years?

It's not exactly the same thing, but I did once throw together a "sampler" list of works by currently living* composers. Not everything in there is a favorite, and there are many favorites not included (especially since the list was restricted to academic composers, thus leaving out a lot of Europeans such as Boulez), but it does give an idea of my "orientation". :-)

*At the time of writing -- Babbitt has since passed on.

What's your preferred term for this? "New music?"

"Contemporary art music." (Or "modern", but that might paradoxically suggest older, as in 1900-1950.)

"New music" is perfectly fine in a context where it's taken for granted that "music" refers to art music (as opposed to popular music). But "classical" is just as bad when referring to Tchaikovsky as when referring to Boulez; the issue is the terminological collision with the Classical period in music history.

Comment author: lukeprog 07 October 2012 09:51:22AM 4 points [-]

The phrase "contemporary art music" has its own problems, of course. For example, it suggests that music from the rock and jazz worlds isn't "art" or "artistic music," which would be a weird thing to say of Joanna Newsome, Julia Holter, Elegi, Matthew Shipp, Nels Cline, Carla Bley, Bill Frisell, and many others.

I've also heard the term "university music," since nearly all composers of the type you and I are discussing were trained in music at a university, but of course that's also true for lots of rock and jazz composers.

Anyway, thanks for the link to your sampler list of works!

Comment author: komponisto 07 October 2012 11:13:12PM 2 points [-]

The phrase "contemporary art music" has its own problems, of course. For example, it suggests that music from the rock and jazz worlds isn't "art" or "artistic music,"

I might be sympathetic to that objection except for the fact that it is virtually never raised against the term "art song" -- which is nothing but a special case of the same usage.

I've also heard the term "university music," since nearly all composers of the type you and I are discussing were trained in music at a university

The idea of "advanced music" (another candidate term, with its own problems) as mainly a university pursuit has historically been mostly an American phenomenon, but has started to spread elsewhere. In Europe the cultural milieu is different, so there hasn't been as much need for such music to "retreat" into academia (as it is sometimes pejoratively phrased). Of course, some composers (notably Babbitt) have explicitly embraced the university as an ideal setting for this sort of music, and don't mind terms like "academic" (considered derogatory by some).

Comment author: [deleted] 07 October 2012 12:26:05PM 2 points [-]

On my university popular music course, we were told that the accepted term at that time (ten years ago) was "Western Art Music", but that that covered jazz as well. Possibly "orchestral" music? Although that would then cover stuff like film scores, or rock bands using a symphony orchestra as what amounts to a big guitar, and wouldn't cover solo piano works or someone like Varese...

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2012 09:37:30PM 0 points [-]

Symphonic music?

Comment author: gjm 08 October 2012 10:20:19PM 2 points [-]

Same problem as "orchestral music": it would exclude piano sonatas, string quartets, solo songs, etc.