Caspian comments on Causal Diagrams and Causal Models - Less Wrong

61 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 12 October 2012 09:49PM

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Comment author: teageegeepea 12 October 2012 05:49:37PM 13 points [-]
Comment author: Caspian 14 October 2012 06:11:29AM 0 points [-]

Good point. And here's a made-up parallel example to that about weight/exercise:

Suppose level of exercise can influence weight (E -> W), and that being underfed reduces weight (U->W) directly but will also reduce the amount of exercise people do (U->E) by an amount where the effect of the reduced exercise on weight exactly cancels out the direct weight reduction.

Suppose also there is no random variation in amount of exercise, so it's purely a function of being underfed.

If we look at data generated in that situation, we would find no correlation between exercise and weight. Examining only those two variables we might assume no causal relation.

Adding in the third variable, would find a perfect correlation between (lack of) exercise and underfeeding. Implications of finding this perfect correlation: you can't tell if the causal relation between them should be E->U or U->E. And even if you somehow know the graph is (E->W), (U->E) and (E->W), there is no data on what happens to W for an underfed person who exercise, or a well-fed person who doesn't exercise, so you can't predict the effect of modifying E.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 14 October 2012 06:15:31PM 2 points [-]

but will also reduce the amount of exercise people do (U->E) by an amount where the effect of the reduced exercise on weight exactly cancels out the direct weight reduction.

It's unlikely that two effects will randomly cancel out unless the situation is the result of some optimizing process. This is the case in Milton Friedman's thermostat but doesn't appear to be the case in your example.

Comment author: scav 15 October 2012 11:46:42AM 2 points [-]

It wouldn't be random. It would be an optimising process, tuned by evolution (another well known optimising process). If you have less food than needed to maintain your current weight, expend less energy (on activities other than trying to find more food). For most of our evolution, losing weight was a personal existential risk.

Comment author: Caspian 15 October 2012 12:35:52PM 0 points [-]

I had meant to suggest some sort of unintelligent feedback system. Not coincidence, but also not an intelligent optimisation, so still not an exact parallel to his thermostat.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 16 October 2012 03:55:59AM 0 points [-]

The thermostat was created by an intelligent human.

I never said the optimizing process had to be that intelligent, i.e., the blind-idiot-god counts.