Open Thread, October 16-31, 2012

5 Post author: OpenThreadGuy 16 October 2012 10:43PM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, even in Discussion, it goes here.

Comments (271)

Comment author: niceguyanon 16 October 2012 11:39:53PM *  15 points [-]

How trainable is the trait of Conscientiousness? Is it as rigid as I.Q?

Comment author: amitpamin 17 October 2012 12:05:00AM 7 points [-]

Good question. I assume you ask because conscientiousness is highly correlated with a number of positive life outcomes?

  1. Conscientiousness is temporally stable, that is, in the average individual, it does not much change over time.
  2. Conscientiousness is linked to a number of other personality traits - e.g. self-regulation, perseverance, etc.... These traits can be trained; and according to a quick skim of the study below, training those traits in turn effects conscientiousness, at least in children.

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/publications/EisenbergDuckworth_ConscientiousnessOriginsinChildhood_2012.pdf

  1. In adults, the trait is more temporally stable (sorry, no citation off hand), but there are hacks - e.g. self-control strategies like mental contrasting, implementation intentions, learned industriousness, etc... can partially achieve the same effect as having more conscientiousness.

This is a good question though... I will investigate some more.

Comment author: gwern 17 October 2012 12:53:50AM *  16 points [-]

Conscientiousness is fairly rigid; it is, however, about as hereditable as IQ or less, from the 2 studies I have on hand:

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 17 October 2012 10:57:14AM 5 points [-]

Do you have any cites for the rigidity assertion? (Seems like they're logically separate questions; it's not obvious how malleable non-genetic contributors would be.)

Comment author: gwern 17 October 2012 03:02:04PM 15 points [-]

I have kept an eye out for Conscientiousness interventions for the past 2 or 3 years, searched on occasion, and have seen nothing ever suggested except possibly stimulants like amphetamines. Possible instances like military experience generally turn out to be selection effects. As well, the Duckworth paper linked in the sibling comment, extensively discusses the numerous correlates and versions of Conscientiousness before adulthood stretching all the way back to early infancy.

So, as much as I'd like there to be some easy environmental intervention to boost my own Conscientiousness, I haven't found any.

Comment author: niceguyanon 18 October 2012 03:52:20AM *  4 points [-]

Given the research that you cited, I have updated my probability estimate – that Conscientiousness is indeed rigid, higher from my original estimate of 75%. Wikipedia provides very accommodating definitions of Conscientiousness, inclusive of many behaviors such as being efficient and systematic, elements such as self-discipline and thoroughness, aspects of industriousness such as productivity and work ethic, and finally a strong association with procrastination.

The following are popular posts that try to understand and promote ways in which we can optimize some of the multiple facets of Conscientiousness listed above :

Scientific Self-Help: The State of Our Knowledge

My Algorithm for Beating Procrastination

Ugh fields

Defeating Ugh Fields In Practice

Anti-Akrasia Technique: Structured Procrastination

If it is not obvious by now, the following questions have me deeply conflicted:

  • Is it a waste of time for most, to invest into these sort of posts, because Conscientiousness is rigid?

  • If these sort of posts are not a waste of time, and you can optimize certain facets of Conscientiousness via the many methods provided, then is Conscientiousness still rigid?

  • Perhaps Conscientiousness is boost-able, but on the low end? Perhaps the efficacy of these posts are over estimated?

Comment author: gwern 18 October 2012 03:07:51PM 6 points [-]

Is it a waste of time for most, to invest into these sort of posts, because Conscientiousness is rigid?

I think you should first ask, what is meant, statistically, by the results we're describing as 'rigid'. If ~50% of population variance is genetically linked, what does that mean in practice?

Second, one should then ask, is there such a thing as 'being efficient with Conscientiousness'? Somewhat like willpower - are there better or worse ways of deploying willpower? What would this even mean?

Comment author: moridinamael 17 October 2012 04:18:34PM *  3 points [-]

This is my own thought and not backed up by any citations, but ...

Since Concientiousness is usually measured by self-reporting, you could find a Concientiousness survey and turn all the questions into affirmations, and recite these affirmations daily. "How often do you forget important deadlines?" -> "I rarely forget important deadlines." I would hypothesize that eventually you might come to believe these discrete facts about yourself. Directly, this would lead to much higher scores on future Concientiousness surveys.

I've read that the only "cure" for true personality disorders is to fake it until faking it becomes second nature. For example, narcissists pretend to care about the needs of others until they sort of start to automatically care about them. So my idea here is that by pretending to have higher Concientiousness, you might actually change.

Comment author: bogus 17 October 2012 06:13:35PM 0 points [-]

I've read that the only "cure" for true personality disorders is to fake it until faking it becomes second nature. For example, narcissists pretend to care about the needs of others until they sort of start to automatically care about them.

Yes, this is the "fake it 'til you make it" idea. It is controversial though, because there's an enduring implication that, e.g. the narcissist does not really care about others, they're just pretending to do so.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 18 October 2012 03:22:16AM *  2 points [-]

Heckman and Tough just wrote a whole book claiming that there are cheap ways to increase conscientiousness of children, though probably only at the low end.

Comment author: ciphergoth 18 October 2012 07:40:12AM 2 points [-]

I have very slowly become a lot more conscientious over the course of my life. It feels like I made a deliberate effort to do so by eg leaning hard on calendars, todo lists and such, but it may simply be ageing.

Comment author: Epiphany 23 October 2012 01:12:03AM *  -1 points [-]

I think there are a couple ways to go about answering this question. If you go about it by seeing whether people who are related and people with a few life experiences that you want to track score high on a conscientiousness test, you're not really answering the question "what training would work?"

I don't have a direct answer to that, but I do have several bits of information that would be very useful for a person who would like to try and solve this:

Dabrowski did research on morality also. His theory is that there are certain traits called "super sensitivities" that predict moral behavior. There may be a way to increase these - perhaps with drugs or life experiences designed to make your nervous system more excitable.

See also Jane Elliot's brown eyes, blue eyes experiment. I don't know whether they did these formally, but they observed that when the situation was reversed (the situation was that kids with a certain eye color were told they were better and became abusive) the children who had experience being second class were much less abusive when put into the "better than" role, as if the experience of being second class had inoculated them against some amount of the bad behavior.

I researched violent crime one day and discovered that the main thing that was connected with violent crime was high testosterone. In theory, treatment using existing drugs could make a very big difference. That would probably require some kind of training intended to explain to the violent criminals that their problem was chemical, and convince them to take the drugs. This would be difficult because if they're chemically imbalanced it may not be easy to get that through to them. To an ordinary person, it's a no-brainer, but to them, it's probably not. Some type of educational program designed to get them to wake up and realize they need testosterone reduction treatment may go a long way.

This doesn't exactly qualify as training, as I've gone up to a meta level, but this kind of thinking could potentially make a very big difference:

We need to consider the role of perverse incentives. There are a lot of perverse incentives in life, and a lot of them are improperly checked and balanced. For instance, diagnosing a person with a mental disorder can be devastating to that person and to come up with an accurate diagnosis can take some time. However, psychologists are pressured to diagnose on the first visit because they can't get paid by the insurance company without it. Take a good person and put them into a bad situation, and they may react as if they were a bad person because they need to in order to survive. Identifying and changing perverse incentives might really change not only the way that a large number of people behave, but would also redirect the selection pressure on humans such that the good ones are more likely to survive and reproduce, helping to "train" our genes in the right direction, rather than just our behavior.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 October 2012 11:52:07PM *  3 points [-]

Winter tips for ignorant southerners? I've moved north (Wisconsin), and I think about the imminent winter every so often, with little real knowledge of what to do other than the perennial advice of dressing in layers, getting all-weather tires, and driving slowly.

Please, let me know winter life hacks/survival tips/things a Texan would not know about cold weather.

Do I need snow shoes? Spikes?

Can I expect to safely walk on the sidewalk in the winter without slipping and hurting my everything?

Do I need more/better coats than what I have now? (A duster and leather jacket, both fairly thick.)

Will I need to get a sun lamp/UV lights for the middle of the winter when the sun is up for a shorter time?

When does the hunting season on snow yetis begin, and are taun-tauns still legal mounts for the hunt?

Comment author: palladias 17 October 2012 12:25:02AM 4 points [-]

Long underwear is great for being warm without wearing a jacket or bulky sweaters all the time. I live in DC, and, last winter, my basement bedroom was unheated. Long underwear + lots of blankets meant I didn't care too much. Flannel sheets may also be your friend.

Comment author: saturn 17 October 2012 02:26:22AM *  5 points [-]

driving slowly

When there's snow or ice on the roads, there's really no speed slow enough that you can count on never losing traction. After the first heavy snow, you might want to practice in a low-traffic area until you get the hang of recovering from a slide. Also practice driving as if there's a full glass of water on your dashboard that you don't want to spill.

Do I need snow shoes? Spikes?

Nobody uses those for day-to-day walking, but you might want a pair of insulated boots depending on how much time you plan to spend outside. These are pretty convenient if you want to walk on ice.

Can I expect to safely walk on the sidewalk in the winter without slipping and hurting my everything?

As long as you're careful.

Do I need more/better coats than what I have now? (A duster and leather jacket, both fairly thick.)

Maybe. Again, it depends on how much you'll be outside. You'll probably want gloves.

Will I need to get a sun lamp/UV lights for the middle of the winter when the sun is up for a shorter time?

I guess, if you want to give yourself an artificial tan at home. Or are you talking about light therapy for depression? Those aren't designed to emit UV.

Comment author: Brigid 17 October 2012 03:15:01AM 0 points [-]

If you don't care about walking on ice, get a nice pair of some lined duck boots (Sorbel, LL Bean). Expensive but totally worth it I think.

I recently found out about the disposable hand and foot warmers. Not perfect but they do a decent job for being so inexpensive (around $1-2).

Comment author: palladias 17 October 2012 04:28:05AM 0 points [-]

Or do it Little Women style and put fresh baked apple turnovers in your pocket.

Comment author: khafra 17 October 2012 02:26:32PM *  0 points [-]

There are also reusable hand warmers, you boil them to recharge. In my experience, their performance degrades to 80% output and duration after a dozen uses.

edited to remove the link to an actual re-usable hand warmer, since the only reason I can think of for a downvote is that someone thought I was shilling for some specific product or site.

Comment author: iceman 17 October 2012 05:33:49AM *  0 points [-]

Do I need snow shoes?

Unlikely. However, depending on average snowfall and where you walk, you'll may want waterproof boots that come up to at least your ankle (Gortex or equivalent). This also depends on how much time you plan to spend outside.

Do I need more/better coats than what I have now? (A duster and leather jacket, both fairly thick.)

Depends entirely on how much time you're outside. I tended to walk everywhere in my college days, so I wore an insulated coat. You'll probably want gloves, even if you stay inside your car most of the time. If you're outside a lot, consider a knit hat, especially if there's a lot of wind where you live.

Other things:

  • Thick socks are awesome for wearing around your house.
  • I like having really cheap fingerless knit gloves for typing inside.
  • If you do spend time outside, look into flannel lined jeans or khakis. Thermal underwear works too.
  • Heating can cost quite a bit of money; set your thermostat lower in the evenings and load up on blankets.
  • At home, drafts are your enemy. If you're in a newer place, I'd assume this shouldn't be as much of a problem. If you're in a place with single pane windows, think about doing putting up window insulation film. In college, this helped with heating costs, but they have the downside of clouding the view.
  • If you have your own driveway, you need a snow-shovel. Even if you theoretically have someone paid to shovel the snow.
Comment author: AspiringRationalist 17 October 2012 05:02:34PM *  2 points [-]

Please, let me know winter life hacks/survival tips/things a Texan would not know about cold weather.

The first thing to keep in mind is that winter weather is quite variable. Where I live (MA), the temperature (in Fahrenheit) in the winter ranges from around -10 to +50. It's good to have ways to keep yourself warm at various points in that range.

Going down human anatomy, I would recommend:

Head

  • A warm hat that covers your ears
  • If you are into outdoor exercise, a headband to keep your ears warm; they can get very cold even if you're producing enough heat to keep the rest of your body warm
  • Sunglasses; snow can cause a lot of glare. Make sure they have full UV protection (most do).
  • Optional: scarf and/or ski mask; on the very cold days, especially if it's also windy, it can be helpful to keep your face covered.
  • Chapstick; the air is pretty dry in the winter.

Torso:

  • A moderately warm jacket and a very warm jacket, for varying temperatures; I use a modular ski jacket, which has an outer shell and an inner lining. The lining can be easily detached and used as a stand-alone jacket on less cold days.
  • Sweater: depending on the temperature at work, you may feel you need one. Also, at home, wearing a sweater is a lot cheaper than cranking the heat up high.

Hands: * Get a good pair of gloves. I cannot emphasize this enough. Preferably get gloves with some grip to them, to make things like opening doors easier. * Moisturizing lotion; as mentioned before, winter air is very dry.

Legs:

  • Most people don't really do much differently here.
  • Optional: Long underwear can be helpful, depending on how easily you get cold.
  • If you will be getting exercise outdoors and are male, wear an extra pair of underwear, ideally not very breathable. Why is left as an exercise for the reader.

Feet:

  • Insulated boots are very useful, though not absolutely necessary. In urban areas, there are often a lot of puddles from melting snow, so make sure they're very waterproof, too.
  • In a less urban area or on a large college campus where you may have to trudge through deep-ish snow, I would also recommend gators to keep the snow from getting inside your shoes.
  • Snowshoes and spikes are unnecessary.
  • Wool socks are helpful, depending on how easily you get cold.

Other things:

  • I find a sun lamp helpful; YMMV.
  • People spend more time indoors with less ventilation, so diseases spread more easily. Take precautions as appropriate.
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 18 October 2012 07:05:54AM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure how common this is but I spent a couple of long weekends (the early Arisias) in a hotel somewhere outside Boston during winter, and the air was so dry that it took my sinuses years to recover. Sleeping with a humidifier might be a good idea.

Comment author: blashimov 19 October 2012 06:07:40PM *  1 point [-]

Somebody is welcome to tell me I'm irrational, but my experience (which doesn't seem to be unique) is that chapstick and lip balm can be really really habit forming - there is something about putting chapstick on that makes always using chapstick a priority - when I stopped using chapstick my lips were drying than before I started. Here are a few links. Note the big difference betwen chapstick, lip balm, and medicated lip balm though. It could easily have been all in my head (which doesn't make it not real sadly). Not surprisingly, there isn't some conspiracy to add irritants to them or anything, it may just be habit forming in the good old fashioned way. http://www.lipbalmanonymous.com/is-lip-balm-addictive/ http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Dermatology/Is-chapstick-really-addictive/show/239683 http://www.snopes.com/business/secret/carmex.asp

Comment author: Curiouskid 21 October 2012 06:10:54AM 0 points [-]

My mom broke her ankle when she slipped on some ice that was covered with snow (so that it looked safe to step on). 99.9% of the time this is not an issue though (and the snow is safe to step on...

Having been depressed before and having recently read "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross, I think I'm going to be ordering a lamp soon.

Comment author: MileyCyrus 17 October 2012 01:26:07AM *  0 points [-]

If you were married, would you rather:

It would be great if you'd share your reasoning in the comments.

Submitting...

Comment author: blashimov 17 October 2012 03:53:38AM 1 point [-]

Earning less money than my partner would (in general) mean I could take of children more often with less economic cost to the family.

Comment author: Kindly 17 October 2012 01:11:40PM 0 points [-]

I didn't immediately think of this, but when I read your comment it ended up being the deciding factor for me.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 October 2012 03:58:33AM 3 points [-]

I am mostly indifferent. I can imagine a situation in which each of those circumstances would be comfortable, given the ideal spouse. My first reaction to this prompt was to consider in what ways the difference would affect my ego: Would I feel inferior to my spouse if I earned less? Or uncomfortable? Would I like to feel dominant over my spouse if I earned more? However, I realize that salary is not an indicator of intellectual capability or compatibility. This is, I believe, a more important determinant in the ideal spouse. I have my preference, which I will not disclose, as to whether or not I like to be the "less wrong" or more knowledgable partner. Since I cannot be perfectly indifferent, I choose to earn $80k/year simply because that is the relatively-better choice for me as an individual, not because it is relatively-better than my spouse's earnings.

Comment author: wedrifid 17 October 2012 04:21:56AM 6 points [-]

If you were married, would you rather:

Is all else equal? In particular, do I have to do any more work to earn the $80k than the $40k?

Comment author: MileyCyrus 17 October 2012 06:20:23AM -1 points [-]

Probably, since a high-paying career often demands more responsibility.

Comment author: wedrifid 17 October 2012 06:34:07AM *  3 points [-]

Probably, since a high-paying career often demands more responsibility.

Ok, that answers the question then. I chose $40k/yr. However it seems worth noting that I think this makes my answer misleading for most purposes so I'm not sure I can learn much meaningful from the poll. I would much prefer to be the partner who earned the larger figure. There are practical, social and psychological reasons why I would find that much easier and expect that all else being equal it is likely to make for a healthier relationship dynamic. Some of those predictions would even be controvertial to express.

It's just that none of that preference is anywhere near strong enough to make up for having to do a crap load more work but being in a similar financial situation.

Comment author: bbleeker 17 October 2012 11:23:24AM 1 point [-]

I guess you are male, and are thinking of a female spouse, right? I'm thinking that the social reason might be that people expect the man to be the higher earner; and the psychological reason that you'd be more comfortable being the dominant partner.

I'm female, and I have a great husband; and I voted to be the less-earning partner, not only because I don't like to work my @$$ off either, but because I like my husband to be slightly dominant (his Captain Picard to my "number one"), or at least not to be dependent on me. Few things make a man more unattractive than being needy, either financially or emotionally.

Comment author: bleen2000 17 October 2012 02:03:45PM 1 point [-]

I like my husband to be slightly dominant (his Captain Picard to my "number one"

Are you an Athol Kay fan?

Few things make a man more unattractive than being needy, either financially or emotionally.

Funny how these things can be interpreted. A rich submissive man could see giving a woman money as a submissive act ("she control's my finances!"), while a dominant man could see it as a dominant act ("I take care of her!")

Comment author: DaFranker 17 October 2012 02:50:56PM 4 points [-]

Funny how these things can be interpreted. A rich submissive man could see giving a woman money as a submissive act ("she control's my finances!"), while a dominant man could see it as a dominant act ("I take care of her!")

What about the other cases? Like, say, a rich humanlike perfect-decision-theoretic agent? Or simply normal people that don't think dominance or submission are inherent parts of their identities or interpersonal relationships?

I know that myself and a few other of my acquaintances often utterly confuse people who attempt to judge us on a "dominance vs submissiveness" axis, simply because we disregard any notion of "dominance status" and merely act according to some other system that doesn't correlate well with either "trait", which creates high variations of "dominant" or "submissive" behaviors in situations that seem strikingly similar to the evaluator.

I've been called (more than once) a very "incoherent" person on this basis.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2012 07:11:44AM *  2 points [-]

Your behavior sounds interesting. Could you give some examples?

Comment author: DaFranker 22 October 2012 03:14:26PM *  3 points [-]

My model is unfortunately not complete enough to reliably give good examples. I only observe those reactions, but I don't myself understand how my behavior is "incoherent" or "confusing". From inside, it feels like they're the ones shackling their thoughts around binary axes and failing to think of things-as-things-are. Nevertheless, I can try.

In the basics, suppose a couple of colleagues and yourself (or schoolmates or somesuch, substitute as appropriate) are discussing a particular project. The D vs S axis seems (i.e. appears to me, though I don't know if this passes i-turing) to predict that some people will be talking more, offering more ideas, while others will merely align with the dominant-type person/idea that fits their preference, and that these roles will tend to persist throughout instances (e.g. if you have multiple meetings) with people usually keeping their roles.

What does that axis make of people, like me and possibly other LW users, stay in the background analyzing the problem without affiliating with any of the dominant ideas, sometimes outright objecting to some ideas while denying the claim of being affiliated with its "opponent", and sometimes offering a (presumed) better solution in some meetings when we feel more competent and able to provide one, but not otherwise?

Where, on the axis, do you classify these people?

Are they dominant? But they lack the characteristic trait of imposing their will - they have no followers, they do not grab for attention, they refuse to impose their solution (I used to only impose a solution when any of the alternatives under consideration would be catastrophic within context, but now in hopefully good instrumental rationality I attempt to signal myself as dominant in order to bring about somewhat more optimal outcomes), and only debate so far as to show the superiority of the idea/solution itself or the flaws of other ideas.

Are they submissive, then? Well, I would think not really, since they don't align to any dominance, fail to signal dependence, and "The Laws of Physics, The Universe, And Everything" sounds like a pretty bad D vs S partner. Maybe they could be considered submissive to some "Logic" or "Physics" entity, but I doubt even D-S axis-minded people would go that far.

Of course, this example seems, even to me, quite contrived, but it's basically an example of what I observe and experience.

I just act in certain manners which I consider completely natural, without conforming myself to any encompassing conception of self-personality or self-identity - merely acting the way I want to act, of which there is a subset of wanting to do things that I ought to do even when other parts of my brain don't like it - as long as my memories and theories of my core self hold to the few principles I consider important (of which subsets, etc.). In reaction to my actions, people express (not always explicitly) some sort of confusion over what to expect of my behaviors, since I'm "all over the place" and "incoherent and unpredictable" (nowadays, this is another of those ambiguous comments which I personally take as a good compliment, since we can't predict what a higher-than-human intelligence would do and all that).

In the context of "romantic" relationships, I'd pretty much be "the kind of people" that deliberately acts in a manner to please their partner (which in my model seems typically submissive), yet does so directly on their own impulse, without asking first, and does things the other might never have asked for or thought of (which in my model seems typical dominant behavior - just do stuff that brings the results and situations you want). All kinds of mixed signals get sent (or so I've been told), while from inside it's basically just that I want to do something and I act on it.

Hopefully this helps understand what I'm saying. I've heard one hardcore qualify me as a "chameleon dominant", where since I just do what I want (and subsets thereof), I'm fully dominant on the axis, but "disguise" myself into a submissive whenever I just happen to want to play such a role. I didn't really have any problem with that or retorts / counterarguments at the time, and don't care enough to think about it too much.

What kind of weird boundaries people want to draw around what and which one of those categories they put me in is usually not something I bother caring about unless the intellectual exercise is interesting or my life is on the line (the latter never happened so far, luckily).

Comment author: bbleeker 17 October 2012 03:49:08PM 0 points [-]

Yes, I read Athol's blog, and that's where I got the comparison. :-) And you're right, giving money could be either dominant or submissive. In the latter case, the guy would be emotionally needy, which would be a big turn-off.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 01:48:41AM 0 points [-]

Gregory Bateson wrote something about the relationship between status and some behaviors being dependent on culture. For example, the Czar would be watching the peasant children dance, but the Queen of England is waving to the crowd.

Comment author: DaFranker 17 October 2012 02:37:38PM *  1 point [-]

Conditioning on this, and all else being equal (assume prior of zero information / even spread of probability distribution), I simply have to take the 40$k. On a zero-information prior, the probabilities dictate that my intellectual time is most likely more important than that of a random other person, and that it is most likely that my job is not an optimal-utility one, such that I can do more good or produce more utility in my spare time than my spouse could in the same spare time obtained with the lower-paying job.

You only need to have an IQ / other measure of social-utility-production above the average (or mean? I haven't actually worked out the maths, just replaying this from rote-learned stuff) in order for this to hold true, in terms of expected utility when you know nothing a priori about the spouse.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 17 October 2012 11:04:31AM 4 points [-]

Is my spouse as gung-ho regarding effective altruism as I am?

Comment author: MileyCyrus 17 October 2012 11:45:41AM 0 points [-]

Does it matter? If you earn more money, do you see yourself as having more say in how it is spent?

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 18 October 2012 12:15:28AM 1 point [-]

I don't know, do I have more say?

Are we each supposed to make up our own hypothetical, or are you giving us a standard one? I recommend giving us a standard one to provide more consistent results.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 02:57:17AM 0 points [-]

If you earn more money, do you see yourself as having more say in how it is spent?

What? I'm confused. Isn't that the point of money?

Comment author: wedrifid 18 October 2012 03:12:04AM 1 point [-]

What? I'm confused. Isn't that the point of money?

The context refers to money within a specific significant explicit and implicit contractual arrangement which happens to include some degree of sharing of resources. Influence on how money is spent within such arrangements is seldom in direct proportion to how much is respectively earned.

Comment author: faul_sname 22 October 2012 09:00:28PM 0 points [-]

Yes and yes.

Comment author: tut 17 October 2012 11:56:47AM 0 points [-]

It seems as though this poll breaks the comment RSS feed.

Comment author: MileyCyrus 17 October 2012 01:11:51PM -1 points [-]

Do I need to delete it?

Comment author: maia 18 October 2012 01:25:01AM 2 points [-]

Don't care too much. $40k/yr seems to imply lesser working hours, which I would probably prefer.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 02:56:17AM 2 points [-]

I trust myself to spend the money on things I value more than I trust her to. This is a no brainer.

A better question would be 80k/40k or 80k/120k

Comment author: MileyCyrus 18 October 2012 11:12:11AM 3 points [-]

Why the blazes would you want your spouse to be $80k poorer? You'd be throwing 40% of your household income down the drain.

Comment author: magfrump 18 October 2012 05:25:59AM 0 points [-]

I envision any spouse I end up with as someone that I am entirely comfortable sharing finances with.

Also when I think about people that I have dated and possible career futures for myself, lower earnings for me would likely mean that I'm spending more time on personal projects rather than being less successful in my career, but the opposite is true for any person I've been in a relationship with for over a year.

Comment author: Spectral_Dragon 19 October 2012 05:27:17PM 0 points [-]

I would want the 80k, given I've not met anyone who trusted my idea I got from an article at Cracked - that you're supposed to help each other, and not be in debt to them, and therefore contribute the percentage you can, so if you make 20 % of the income, you're responsible for 20 % of expenses - since I've yet to make more money than any potential partners. I basically only want to feel like I'm not freeloading on anyone, including my spouse.

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 17 October 2012 06:43:32AM *  4 points [-]

In my preferences, I have the option "Don't show me comments with a score less than (Blank for none)" blanked out, because I wanted to see all comments. Despite that, the site seems to hide comments from me. For instance, goplat's comment in this article.

Am I making some mistake?

Comment author: wedrifid 17 October 2012 06:57:49AM 1 point [-]

In my preferences, I have the option "Don't show me comments with a score less than (Blank for none)" blanked out, because I wanted to see all comments. Despite that, the site seems to hide comments from me. For instance, goplat's comment in this article.

The new change that hides entire subthreads of a downvoted comment from view in the comment streams possibly overrides that old preference system.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 18 October 2012 03:17:24AM 0 points [-]

I think that it would be more accurate to say that there were two changes than to say that one change had two effects. The change to recent comments deletes comments from that view, while the change Markus Ramikin is talking about minimizes them in all views. It seems to me unlikely that there is any logical connection between the two.

Comment author: wanderingsoul 17 October 2012 09:58:21AM *  2 points [-]

Not too long ago I wanted to write a poem to express a poem to express a certain emotion, defiance toward death, but it only occurred to me recently that it might be LW appropriate. I took a somewhat different path than "do not go gentle..." but you can judge yourselves how it went. Posted in the open thread as I feel it is relatively open to random stuff like this. (Formatting screwy because I'm not used to the format here yet)

Defiance

I am afraid

 All about me the lights blink out
Seeing their fate I’m filled with fear
I want to run, I want to shout
Perhaps this time someone will hear

I am dust

 Dancing mannequin of the wind
I cannot see what strings bind me
I have lived and laughed, loved and sinned
Never knowing if I was free
But no more!

I am alive

 Bind me no more, you dust! This mind
knows the fires of love and life
Any dust that burns this bright
Is not cold enough to truly bind

I am human

 Two arms, two legs, a mind of steel
Latest line of nature’s skyward stride
But so much more, to think and feel
In the land where no dreams have died

I am mankind

 I am not, nor was ever alone
With loving brothers at my side
I’ll shout the truth this love has shown
The joy for which so many cried

And I am rising The life we feel is more than death

 The love is worth more than the fear
And one day we’ll kill you, little death
If it takes mankind a thousand years
So take me if you will and can
Though I’ll fight you the whole way
Soon will come the age of man
That day when a child can say
that

I am not afraid

Comment author: Metus 17 October 2012 10:11:41AM 0 points [-]

In a more general effort to improve my health, or at least slowing its deterioration, I am thinking about constructing a hybrid standing desk. Now I do not have enough money to afford an actual convertible standing desk and I would very much like the convertible part. So I am thinking about a wall mount for my monitor or maybe even better some similar kind of adjustable mount that allows the necessary range of height to switch between sitting and standing. The problem then is still the keyboard. I already have a wireless keyboard, so switching it would not be a problem, but on what would I put it?

Any ideas and opinions?

Comment author: palladias 17 October 2012 01:42:50PM 3 points [-]

You can also go for a cheap non-convertible standing desk and a tall stool.

Comment author: Metus 17 October 2012 08:42:59PM 0 points [-]

I use the monitor on my desk also as a movie viewing device with friends so I would much like to use my current chair. Nice idea though.

Comment author: drethelin 17 October 2012 09:16:50PM 0 points [-]

My wall mounte monitor Arms do not have the vertical range to go from comfortable sitting to standing. Make sure to check the flexibility and correct mounting height.

Comment author: maia 18 October 2012 01:29:44AM 0 points [-]

For your keyboard: get a laptop stand? (something like this: http://www.amazon.com/On-Stage-LPT5000-Laptop-Computer-Stand/dp/B001AYONXU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1350523707&sr=8-3&keywords=laptop+stand)

Or the DIY route: make a stand out of PVC or balsa wood. Or the ghetto college-student route: cardboard box.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 19 October 2012 01:38:54PM 1 point [-]

In a more general effort to improve my health, or at least slowing its deterioration, I am thinking about constructing a hybrid standing desk.

Prolonged standing appears to increase the risk of varicose veins. (References: Google search of /varicose standing/.) Are you sure that replacing sitting by standing will actually benefit you?

Comment author: Metus 19 October 2012 04:47:00PM 1 point [-]

No, the best thing to do is to reduce time spent in front of the computer and get moving. Anyway, no position should be assumend for prolonged time and adding the possibility of standing gives a little bit of variety.

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 05:03:43PM 1 point [-]

Hence the hybrid idea. Studies I've seen show that doing one or the other for long times is bad, but moving between the two at intervals or walking around more is far better for your health.

Comment author: Lightwave 17 October 2012 12:51:37PM *  1 point [-]

I'm planning on doing a presentation on cognitive biases and/or behavioral economics (Kahneman et al) in front of a group of university students (20-30 people). I want to start with a short experiment / demonstration (or two) that will demonstrate to the students that they are, in fact, subject to some bias or failure in decision making. I'm looking for suggestion on what experiment I can perform within 30 minutes (can be longer if it's an interesting and engaging task, e.g. a game), the important thing is that the thing being demonstrated has to be relevant to most people's everyday lives. Any ideas?

I also want to mention that I can get assistants for the experiment if needed.

Edit: Has anyone at CFAR or at rationality minicamps done something similar? Who can I contact to inquire about this?

Comment author: Barry_Cotter 17 October 2012 01:13:08PM *  1 point [-]

Confirmation bias, the triplet number test where the rule is “Any triplet where the second number is greater than the first and the third greatet than the second”. Original credit (edit:for my exposure)to Eliezer in HPmoR but I thought of it because that was what Yvain did at a meetup I was at.

Comment author: wedrifid 17 October 2012 01:34:29PM 3 points [-]

Confirmation bias, the triplet number test where the rule is “Any triplet where the second number is greater than the first and the third greatet than the second”. Original credit to Eliezer in HPmoR but I thought of it because that was what Yvain did at a meetup I was at.

To be clear, since reading this made me double-take, I think by "original credit" you mean "original credit for your personal exposure to the concept".

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 17 October 2012 01:17:17PM 1 point [-]

The Wason selection task is a good go-to example of confirmation bias.

Comment author: Lightwave 17 October 2012 01:48:23PM 2 points [-]

Well the thing is that people actually get this right in real life (e.g. with the rule 'to drink you must be over 18'). I need something that occurs in real life and people fail at it.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 17 October 2012 01:59:29PM 1 point [-]

They get it correct when it's in an appropriate social context, not simply because it's happening in real life. If it didn't happen in real life, confirmation bias wouldn't be a real thing.

Comment author: Lightwave 17 October 2012 02:27:23PM 2 points [-]

Right, but I want to use a closer to real life situation or example that reduces to the wason selection task (and people fail at it) and use that as the demonstration, so that people can see themselves fail in a real life situation, rather than in a logical puzzle. People already realize they might not be very good at generalized logic/math, I'm trying to demonstrate that the general logic applies to real life as well.

Comment author: Vaniver 17 October 2012 05:42:23PM 0 points [-]

Well the thing is that people actually get this right in real life (e.g. with the rule 'to drink you must be over 18'). I need something that occurs in real life and people fail at it.

No, people are more likely to get it right in real life. Some fraction of your audience will get it wrong, even with ages and drinks.

Comment author: faul_sname 22 October 2012 06:17:45PM 1 point [-]

To a first approximation, people get it right in real life.

Comment author: Larks 17 October 2012 09:57:14PM 4 points [-]

Get people to give 90% confidence intervals on 10 questions, and then at the end ask

"Ok, so who got all 10 within their intervals. 9? That's what you should have got... ok, 8? Still no-one? Ok, how about 7?"

Comment author: Kindly 18 October 2012 12:00:37AM 0 points [-]

90% might not be the best number for demonstrating the idea of a confidence interval. It's too close to 100%. There's not much room to be underconfident. What about 50% confidence intervals?

Comment author: Morendil 18 October 2012 06:13:59AM *  1 point [-]

Have you tried it? I have, and I can tell you most people I tried it on are over-confident when asked for 90% intervals.

Comment author: maia 18 October 2012 01:27:08AM 1 point [-]

For something very brief, anchoring bias is easy to demonstrate and fairly dramatic. I tried this on a friend a couple weeks ago, anchoring her on 1 million people as the population of Ghana; she guessed 900,000. Turned out to be 25 million.

Comment author: Morendil 18 October 2012 06:24:02AM *  3 points [-]

I've done this in a few small groups, using:

  • the "this is an attention test" video (aka "how many passes does the team in white make") - always a hit
  • a calibration exercise just as Larks suggests below, which works pretty well
  • the Wason card task - some people find it unconvincing "because it's logic" (!)
  • a "learned helplessness" experiment using impossible anagrams - works so-so
  • a "priming" experiment where two groups have a phrase-building task with different priming words - my version of that sucks, need to rework it
  • I also show the Spinning Dancer often
Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 17 October 2012 01:37:22PM *  8 points [-]

I was leafing through a copy of Marc Hauser's Moral Minds off a friend's bookshelf at the weekend, and it made me realise why I'd gone off reading books lately: the original content is too hard to find amongst the material I'm already familiar with.

I don't want to read another introduction to Chomsky's theory of universal grammar. I don't need another primer on ev-psych. I'm not interested in having the Trolley Problem explained to me again. What I would like is a concise breakdown of the core arguments, linking to other sources to explain things I might not already be familiar with.

This would end up looking a little like a Wikipedia article, or more to the point, a Less Wrong post. We have our fair share of book reviews, but they tend to select for books in which there's value in reading the whole thing, rather than those which have some novel content amongst mostly familiar territory, (what I took away from the recent chapter-by-chapter review of Causality was that I should totally read the book).

Is anyone else in this boat? Could it be worth organising some sort of book review/summarisation group?

Comment author: Morendil 18 October 2012 06:12:33AM 8 points [-]

Aye. I'd be keen to join some sort of book club for smart people, where you could see others' bookshelves a la LibraryThing, but on top of that also have very short reviews letting you know what to expect from each book.

Most books tend to fall into two broad categories: things you already mostly know, and things you care little about. The rare high-value book is one that has just enough connection to what you already know, and makes you care about a whole new domain. (An exceptional book, like GEB, will make you care about many new domains at once.)

One recently read book that was very high value because it covered ground that was totally new to me: Abbott's System of Professions. Typically books in the sociology of professions had focused on the "trappings", professional societies, regulation and so on. Abbott pointed out that professions were the emergent result of a complex system of jurisdictional disputes, and the only way you can understand a profession is by looking at the others that compete with it for dominion over its topics. Abbot's analysis is so wide-ranging that it connects in several places with topics I care about; for instance when he analyzes "the construction of the 'personal problems' jurisdiction", a tug-of-war between the clergy, the (early) "neurologists", and psychiatry; or when he sketches the early history of the information professions - I hadn't realized that librarians were among the first such.

Comment author: Jabberslythe 18 October 2012 07:17:59AM 0 points [-]

The only reason that I still read most books is that it is very low cost for me.

I think I get some benefit from reading through things I already know, though. It's going to help me remember it and the explanations are going to be somewhat different and so I'm going to get a better understanding of it overall.

I would join the group. We could do it through goodreads or a similar, better designed, site if you know of one.

Comment author: Curiouskid 21 October 2012 05:18:26AM *  2 points [-]

I have the exact same problem. You forgot about Phineus Gage and getting a pole stuck through your head.

I think one way of solving this would be to use something like workflowy to make the entire book a zoomable/compressible bullet list. That way, the book would have a section heading like "explanation of Chomsky's theory of Universal grammer" you could literally just skip that entire branch of the book (and if any part of it were referenced, you could jump back to it (because it's digital) ) .

Also, a lot of LWers (myself included) are looking to build better argument mapping software for a wikipedia of arguments type resource (though that's a bit simplified).

EDIT:

Also, you could compile all the different 1 sentence, 1 page, 5 page, 1 chapter, explanations from several different authors. for any particular bullet point.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 October 2012 04:54:28PM *  2 points [-]

One of the snarky comments on Edward Feser's blog put words to my general feeling about him:

There was never any pretense that it was about "nothingness" in the sense Feser would like it have been. So why does he pretend that it was? He's on a divine mission to uncover straw men.

(Naturally the locals call this commenter an atheist troll and ask him to "do the reading" -- no doubt "read the Sequences" in the local dialect -- but he retorts, "It makes no difference to you whether I do the reading or not. You complain either way.")

EDIT: If you haven't read Feser before, his standard blog-writing process is:

  1. Take some atheist claim.
  2. Reduce it to Aristotlelian jargon. (optionally admitting that this changes the meaning of the original claim entirely)
  3. Show that some medieval philosopher said the jargon claim was nonsense.
  4. Accuse the original atheist of spewing nonsense and being unaware of the true philosophical underpinnings of Christianity.
Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 18 October 2012 09:22:55AM *  5 points [-]

I can't speak for his blog writings (since I have only read a few articles), but I have read his book on Nozick and am almost done with his book on Aquinas.

  • Show that some medieval philosopher said the jargon claim was nonsense.

  • Accuse the original atheist of spewing nonsense and being unaware of the true philosophical underpinnings of Christianity.

I have no reason to doubt your claim, but it seems plausible that he is right in this case (if, in fact, he does so accuse atheists in this way). Why? Because I had 4 years of Bible class in high school and studied philosophy of religion at university and yet still only understood the straw man versions (most likely unintentional straw men, mind you) of the arguments made by "some medieval philosopher", or had any idea about the philosophical "underpinnings of Christianity".

It wasn't until I got interested enough in the history of science to actually bother to read primary texts (in astronomy, alchemy, and "physics") that I was able to get my mind situated in such a way that I could look around at the world from within these alien Medieval paradigms and see that some of these claims weren't just silly bullshit.

Anyway, if it takes such a roundabout sequence of obscure studies to even begin to make sense of this stuff, it is no wonder that modern atheists (or virtually all Christians, for that matter) have trouble getting it right.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 09:43:05AM 4 points [-]

Someone tells me, "1 + 1 = 2."

I tell them, "Ah, but if you take one cloud and another cloud, and add them together, you still get one cloud, so 1 + 1 = 1."

Neither claim is "silly bullshit", but the conclusion of the second sentence is clearly broken. I have no reason to doubt Feser is a domain expert in theology. It's what he does with his expertise that bothers me.

Anyway, if it takes such a round about sequence of obscure studies to even begin to make sense of this stuff, it is no wonder that modern atheists (or virtually all Christians, for that matter) have trouble getting it right.

That's exactly the point. Christianity is already a sociological fact that bares almost no resemblance to whatever kind of Christianity it is that would "get it right."

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 18 October 2012 10:00:57AM *  3 points [-]

Yeah, I think I see what you mean. Feser seems to want to take apart arguments put forward by the atheist in the street in a no-holds-barred style, but then berates atheists that do the same to the Christian in the street, rather than only grappling with the arguments advanced by the masters of theology.

Comment author: wedrifid 18 October 2012 10:52:28AM 5 points [-]

I tell them, "Ah, but if you take one cloud and another cloud, and add them together, you still get one cloud, so 1 + 1 = 1."

Neither claim is "silly bullshit"

I'm comfortable calling that claim silly bullshit. In fact, I can't think of a better word for it. It is exactly the kind of thing the phrase "silly bullshit" is there to describe.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2012 07:26:07AM *  5 points [-]

I've noticed that reading old texts with alien mindsets is an instant idea generator for fantasy settings. (Seriously, I don't get I've never heard anyone suggest the notion of "fantasy writers should read old texts" before. They're just filled with peculiar ideas about the world that one can import directly to a fantasy setting.) Would you happen to have any recommendations on texts that would be particularly suitable for this?

Comment author: ciphergoth 17 October 2012 09:56:18PM 3 points [-]

Is there a word for a person, or an agent, that self-modifies to find something more painful, in order to change someone else's incentives, as described here? Obviously there are some choice phrases we might like to use about such a person, but most of them - eg "moral blackmail" - seem insufficiently precise. Is there a term that captures specifically this, and not other behaviour we don't like? If not, what might be a good, specific term?

Comment author: drethelin 17 October 2012 10:19:59PM 1 point [-]

Subset of utility monster, I think.

Comment author: ciphergoth 17 October 2012 10:22:43PM 0 points [-]

I have used that term for this, but it's not very precise: the Wikipedia entry has the monster absorbing positive utility rather than threatening negative, and there's no mention of self-modification.

Comment author: wgd 19 October 2012 06:41:32PM *  0 points [-]

The self-modification isn't in itself the issue though is it? It seems to me that just about any sort of agent would be willing to self-modify into a utility monster if it had an expectation of that strategy being more likely to achieve its goals, and the pleasure/pain distinction is simply adding a constant (negative) offset to all utilities (which is meaningless since utility functions are generally assumed to be invariant under affine transformations).

I don't even think it's a subset of utility monster, it's just a straight up "agent deciding to become a utility monster because that furthers its goals".

Comment author: fubarobfusco 18 October 2012 04:23:01PM 0 points [-]

It seems like the sort of thing that one would accuse another of, in order to score political points by making others feel ashamed to have sympathized with the person so accused. IOW, making the accusation is a much cheaper form of manipulation than actually doing the self-modification — and can be used to undermine many claims that one person is harming another. Thus, we should expect to hear the accusation from people who would like to go on harming others and getting away with it.

Comment author: ciphergoth 19 October 2012 08:32:09AM 2 points [-]

I wouldn't be surprised to see examples of people saying "you don't really feel bad, you're faking it" which is a very different thing, and there's an example of people saying "we mustn't incentivize these hypothetical Muslims to self-modify in this way". But can you point me to an example of what you describe happening - of someone saying "you, the actual real person I am replying to, have self-modified to find something more painful in order to change other people's incentives"?

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 19 October 2012 10:04:00AM 1 point [-]

"Utility martyr"?

Comment author: djcb 17 October 2012 10:54:02PM 5 points [-]

What do people think about Jaynes' (the other one) The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind ?

I just read it, and while I enjoyed the book, I'm rather sceptical about the book's main point -- that consciousness (in the way the book describes) only arrived ~ 1000 BCE. The evidence provided by the Jaynes Society doesn't really convince me either.

Jaynes is not a crackpot in the Von Däniken/Hancock school, but I found his evidence lacking for his extraordinary claim. What do you think?

Comment author: Jabberslythe 18 October 2012 09:21:12AM 1 point [-]

Does anyone have any good brief ways of describing LW to outsiders that have been effective? This comes up quite a bit for me with friends and family.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 18 October 2012 09:33:27AM 3 points [-]

Does anyone have any good brief ways of describing LW to outsiders that have been effective? This comes up quite a bit for me with friends and family.

I think the most effective rhetorical technique would be very sensitive to the kind of person you are describing it to. I don't know if it is good, but I once said something like "it is about how you can avoid certain kinds of errors in your thinking, so that you can make better decisions".

Comment author: drethelin 18 October 2012 09:48:24AM 6 points [-]

I just call it a cult

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 18 October 2012 10:02:55AM 3 points [-]

At least call it a rationality cult.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 18 October 2012 10:30:21AM 4 points [-]

"Computer programmers trying to do philosophy" is how I describe LW to myself, but I don't know how effective that'd be for outsiders.

Comment author: Spectral_Dragon 18 October 2012 03:28:31PM 0 points [-]

"It's a guy, pretty much as intelligent as, and at least twice as effective as a dozen Ph.D's in philosophy examining and discussing how to think better. Look, just... Here, The Simple Truth. Read this. It's basically this kind of thinking applied to everything."

Not that brief, but it's gotten at least a few interested in LW.

Comment author: palladias 18 October 2012 06:34:24PM 3 points [-]

HPMOR for everything

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 19 October 2012 10:34:58AM 0 points [-]

Just without the magic. Which makes all the miracles so painfully slow.

Comment author: drethelin 18 October 2012 07:39:52PM 1 point [-]

Direct Effects of Low-to-Moderate CO2 Concentrations on Human Decision-Making Performance

Gotta get working on those pressurized oxygen filled buildings

Comment author: gwern 18 October 2012 07:50:51PM 3 points [-]

The effect size of the higher level of CO2 on some of the tests is ridiculous. Reminds me of Cochran's speculation on nitrogen content.

Comment author: evand 19 October 2012 04:27:29AM 0 points [-]

Interesting, but has problems with helium supply, even at smaller scales.

Breathing tanks are problematic. If you carry a breathing tank, the simplest approach involves venting a lot of helium. Scrubbers, recycling, and O2 replenishment carries nontrivial risk of death without warning. Capturing the exhaled helium requires heavy, power-hungry compressors.

Building present nontrivial air-quality engineering problems, and need more than airlocks retrofitted on to make them airtight.

Also, it's far from obvious that 20% is the optimum O2 content, though I think it's quite well supported to say that 100% is too much.

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 04:34:04AM 0 points [-]

My own belief is that before we start trying to get rid of nitrogen with helium or hydrogen, we ought to check first that increasing oxygen doesn't deliver some or all the benefits.

Comment author: evand 19 October 2012 01:10:21PM 0 points [-]

Well, you can't increase it too far. The fire hazard gets insane pretty quick. 30% O2 is probably OK, but does have a substantial fire risk increase; 40% probably isn't. Also, increased oxygen has long-term health impacts (I don't remember details; I could look them up if you're curious), but I don't think we know what level those start at to any precision.

I suppose fire risk isn't a huge deal if you're using portable breathing tanks, but you do still need to investigate health impacts. They're long-term enough that you could ignore them for initial study of the cognitive effects, though.

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 02:45:38PM *  1 point [-]

I suppose fire risk isn't a huge deal if you're using portable breathing tanks, but you do still need to investigate health impacts.

Yeah, I'm well-aware of the dangers of oxygen fire (from learning about the Apollo program); oxygen tanks are probably how this would be implemented. Of course, I'm not sure that the benefit could possibly justify the expense of oxygen tanks but just the result would be interesting. (Perhaps one could justify some sort of oxygen alarm.)

Comment author: wgd 21 October 2012 02:14:39AM *  0 points [-]

Actually, I don't think oxygen tanks are that expensive relative to the potential gain. Assuming that the first result I found for a refillable oxygen tank system is a reasonable price, and conservatively assuming that it completely breaks down after 5 years, that's only $550 a year, which puts it within the range of "probably worthwhile for any office worker in the US" (assuming an average salary of $43k) if it confers a performance benefit greater than around 1.2% on average.

These tanks supposedly hold 90% pure oxygen, and are designed to be used with a little breathing lasso thing that ends up with you breathing around 30% oxygen (depending on the flow rate of course).

Since 30-40% oxygen concentrations seem to increase word recall by a factor of 30-50% and reduce reaction time by ~30%, improve 2-back performance by ~15%, and improve mental arithmetic accuracy by ~20% for 3-digit numbers, it seems pretty likely that the overall benefit of oxygen supplementation while working could be greater than breakeven.

Comment author: gwern 21 October 2012 02:43:05AM *  0 points [-]

Oh, that is interesting. I was sort of assuming that you would have to pay for each refill and that a recharger wouldn't be just <$3k.

Also, interesting links. Connecting psychometric tasks to actual monetary value is always tricky, but those studies certainly suggest there might be meaningful benefit (but the benefit will be weaker at 30% oxygen - the links seem to all be at 40%).

One big problem there is that $3k is a lot to pay up front. But on the upside, if you can change the flow rate, I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to blind the oxygen content...

Comment author: MileyCyrus 22 October 2012 02:51:14PM 0 points [-]

Doesn't breathing too much oxygen make you age faster?

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 October 2012 08:17:21PM *  4 points [-]

Three Words: Little Mermaid Fanfiction.

Featuring Rationalist!Feminist!Determinator!Ariel, fighting against both the machinations of an Ursula with a massively increased power level (think Cthulhu's little sister) and her violent and patriarchal father, and the society that he defends.

I would like to write this, but I'm not confident that I've got the skills or knowledge to do so (specifically I need to read a lot more on feminism, also I've never written fanfiction before). Please PM me any ideas about anything that you think might improve the story, whether that's general writing advice or a specific scene or a character development ark or stuff about feminism I should read or anything else.

This could be absolutely fantastic, the source material allows for a lot of manueverability and I think canon Ariel's personality would only require some minor tweaking (mostly with the feminism) in order to fit the mold of what I've got in mind. View this and her curiousity just oozes off the film. There is so much potential here that it is just ridiculous.

Comment author: MixedNuts 18 October 2012 09:14:39PM 6 points [-]

PM'd a bunch of ideas, but I dunno why you don't want them public.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 October 2012 10:51:25PM *  3 points [-]

I was worried about it being a huge mess, at first, but putting them out in the open will allow for more criticism and dialogue, so that was a mistake. I was a bit tired when I posted that comment. I'll post your comments here then.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 October 2012 10:52:48PM *  1 point [-]

These ideas are courtesy of MixedNuts, please give him the (+) karma and not me. I'll take all the (-) karma.

  • Limyaael's rants (and everything else on that site).
  • Think about where she got her ideas from. In the movie everything stems from her humanity hobby and her teenage rebellion against her helicopter dad (who is overprotective but not evil; upping the bigotry sounds worthwhile but making him not genuinely concerned for her well-being sounds like a loss of complexity). If she's going to have any explicit feminist ideals, why? Did she come up with them herself, or is there a feminist movement, or is she part of a different movement whose ideas she ran away with? Is that movement old, with several waves, or just finding its voice? How divided is it? Is she concerned about straightforward rights, first-wave style, or is she getting into the philosophical significance of gender roles? Is she selfish, as in the movie, or concerned about helping other mermaids/human wannabes/females of all species? How does she relate to her sisters, and other people who tell her "I don't want to be liberated, thank you very much"?
  • Intersectionality: is she all about feminism/humanity/whatever she stands for, and if so does she try to make that work for all mermaids, or does she conveniently forget that not everyone is a sheltered princess with no responsibilities other than an occasional concert? Or does she fight for other causes - because she needed to make accommodations for non-princesses, or because she has a general philosophical system she noticed applies elsewhere? If so, what does she do about, say, the absolute monarchy? (Mad props if you dissect the class/race implications of Sebastian's Under the sea attitude and include the blackfish.)
  • How is society for people who are neither royalty, working for royalty, or evil mages, anyway?
  • In the movie, she's hopelessly naive about humans. In particular, she thinks human women are much freer than mermaids, and it doesn't really hit her that they don't know fish are people. Does she start out that way, and if so what happens when she learns it? Once she knows it, what does she do about it? Does she genuinely care about understanding and helping humans or does she just go "ooh, shiny"?
  • How alone is she? In the movie, her sidekicks don't share any of her ideas and are pretty much incompetent. Does she look for better allies? How does she value cooperation relative to personal friendship?
  • Where does she stand, on the diplomat - firebrand - murderous fanatic spectrum? Does that change over time, and why?
  • Does she have to be straight? (Limyaael's campaign for asexual female characters has gotten into me.)
  • What's the relationship between Triton and Ursula, in terms of power imbalance, current truce (if so) conditions, ability to destroy each other if they sacrifice everything for it and conditions for being willing to do so?
  • What do her sisters want? How do they feel about Triton, about society, about Ariel being the favorite, about Ariel's weird ideas, about Triton's reactions?
  • What's Ursula's backstory? How and why did she learn magic? Why does she use her powers for this specific job? Does she really believe her "but all the while I've been a saint" claims (there's some possible commentary on "People should be able to sign any contract including leonine ones"-brand libertarianism here), or does she use that to fly under some legal radar, or to ensnare her victims? How eager is she to drop the act (and if it's not entirely an act, how does she justify it) when convenient? Do her victims know that, and how does it affect their willingness to do business with her?
  • Why do people defend a bigoted society? Some major villains can just be evil, but a whole society can't; they must have reasons that sound good from their perspective, possibly with complex justifications.
Comment author: chaosmosis 18 October 2012 11:01:07PM *  0 points [-]

My first thought is that this will be even more worked than I planned on. These are great questions.

I need to put a lot of time into this, no one should expect the story to get started for at least a few months.

I need actual women or actual feminists to talk to me; I live in a red state and don't ever see these people speaking up about patriarchy. I'm only familiar with feminism through books, and a couple discussions every now and then. What are the biggest pitfalls that I risk? Whose books should I read?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 01:54:10AM 4 points [-]

Tentative advice: Read books by women with female viewpoint characters. Make note of anything that seems odd, especially if you see it from more than one author.

Comment author: chaosmosis 19 October 2012 02:14:34PM 1 point [-]

Recommendations, anyone?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 02:16:43PM 1 point [-]

Among Others by Jo Walton.

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 04:43:15PM 1 point [-]

So if you're like me, you start reading that book, and almost immediately need to read a bunch of other books, because the main character has read them and how can I understand without reading them? I think I can resist a lot of them, and there's already a good amount of overlap but when she starts actually mentioning plot points from other books in ways that seem emotionally relevant is when I need to read them. So I can recommend the start of this book but am now reading Triton before I can get back to it.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 01:16:08PM *  0 points [-]

If I were a very cruel person, I'd recommend Greer Gilman's Moonwise-- it surpasses the formal specifications (female author, main characters are two middle-aged women and two goddesses), but it's extremely referential we'd probably never see you again, and honestly, it's probably not particularly relevant to chaosmosis' quest.

However, I've started a reading group about it.

Comment author: drethelin 20 October 2012 02:22:59PM 1 point [-]

My book queue is already functionally infinite so adding another infinite to it doesn't really harm me :)

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 04:52:18PM 2 points [-]

Sunshine, by Robin Mckinley.

Paladin of Souls and Cordelia's Honor (I liked this one way more, and the series it's at the start of is fantastic, though the main character of that one is male) by Lois Mcmaster Bujold

In the Garden of Iden, by Kage Baker, the start of one my other favorite scifi series.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2012 07:03:39AM 4 points [-]

"The Omniscient Breasts" might be a somewhat useful post when writing female characters.

Comment author: blashimov 19 October 2012 05:56:26PM 3 points [-]

Are you going to have fish be sentient? Are all animals sentient Disney-style? If you are trying to make an at all coherent world, I'd just ditch the sentient fish part. Otherwise, I will honestly never read this because I won't be able to get over the horror of billions of sentient death just constantly. MOR!Harry panic about snakes right there. That is a really, really, weird world where humans haven't noticed as well. Fish are really, really, stupid. Hence we eat them en masse before we even started farming.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 October 2012 11:09:54PM *  1 point [-]

This is going to be really difficult to execute. If anyone else wants this basic premise, please take it. I'd love to read someone else's take on these ideas or ideas like this.

Also, don't take this outline as a promise. I reserve the right to completely change the story's meaning and plot as I wish.

Comment author: chaosmosis 20 October 2012 06:51:53AM *  0 points [-]

I don't know what to do with Ursula. It's tempting to make her into the overzealous feminist strawman, but that seems like a weak fight, ideologically, and that's not a message that I really want to send out. Ursula needs to stand in clear contrast to both Ariel and the patriarchal society which rejects her. It would also be nice if Ursula was relatable.

The best idea I've had so far is to make Ursula an extremely jaded and manipulative and pragmatic woman, who neglects what's good in relationships and focuses but this conflict with the Eldritch horror awesomeness that I had planned. I've got vague ideas of how to reconcile the two, but input on this would help a lot.

Having Ursula's default state be an even more powerful version of her boss form was one of the main inspirations for this fiction. Ursula has the potential to be a really cool character, and she's shaping the way that I approach my ideas about the mermaid culture and Ariel's character. I love villains, so I would really appreciate it if people helped me to not screw this one up.

EDIT: Removed faulty link.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 01:58:57PM *  4 points [-]

Your link just led to an Aladdin icon, so I assume you had something else in mind.

When I was rereading the thread, it also occurred to me that Ursula was the hard part. My take is that she's what she is for much the same reason crime bosses are what they are-- power, safety, and excitement-- with the last two having to be balanced. It might be interesting if there was a family tradition of being outlaw magic users.

However, I'm not a feminist, though I agree with a lot of feminist ideas. I think men and women are fairly similar, and that means some women are going to be very bad news. I'm inclined to think that the status differences between men and women have a lot to do with men being (for reasons that aren't clear to me) better at group violence. It's not about the upper body strength.

Ursula could be an outcast from her own society because she's mean and irresponsible. You could spin a story about her which goes either way-- the octos are actually dominant (or at least secure/isolated), and they exile their criminals who then predate various cultures the octos don't care about.

Alternatively, the mers dominate the octos, and Ursula has ambition and no place inside respectable mer society to use it.

Real world octopi are short-lived. How would that affect their approach to prisoner's dilemmas? A claim that they're unreliable because of their short lives could also be used to justify prejudice against them.

However, I'm just noodling here-- I've only seen the movie once.

Comment author: CronoDAS 22 October 2012 07:13:54AM 1 point [-]

Incidentally, there was a TV cartoon series based on the movie, which takes place when Ariel was younger and hadn't yet developed her humanity obsession.

Comment author: MileyCyrus 22 October 2012 03:08:51PM 2 points [-]

Is this going to be based of the Disney film or the Hans Christian Andersen story?

Comment author: chaosmosis 22 October 2012 09:47:16PM 0 points [-]

Mostly Disney, but I might borrow things from HCA.

Comment author: MixedNuts 23 October 2012 06:51:27PM 0 points [-]

You might want to look at the various tales and plays named Undine, too.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 08:48:07PM *  3 points [-]

A question came up in response to EY's recent sequence posts that I'd like someone to take a shot at: EY seems to me at least to be saying that the universe is a 'fabric of causal relations' or is 'made of cause and effect' or something like that.

He's also said that probability (and so causal relations, given how he understands them) are 'subjectively objective'.

The first claim implies that casual relations are fundamental to the universe, the second implies that they're ways in which limited observers and agents deal with what is fundamental. As such, the two claims seem to be inconsistent. What's going on here?

Comment author: TimS 18 October 2012 09:02:11PM 0 points [-]

I've wondered the same thing.

Some of it might be that no two agents will have the same experiences, and so they will not have the same probabilities assigned to particular propositions even if they started with the same priors, has identical sense-receptors, and are both perfect Bayesians.

But it seems misleading to use the label "subjectively objective" for that phenomena. And I might be totally off track, in which case I am totally confused about what "subjectively objective" is supposed to be about.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 19 October 2012 12:40:29AM *  4 points [-]

Via Reddit: Morality shifting in the context of intergroup violence.

In gist, if your ingroup does things that harm others, you are likely to subsequently shift your moral attitudes away from principles that tell you that harming others is wrong, and towards principles that value loyalty and obedience.

A quote from near the end:

Although we conceive of morality shifting as motivated by the need to protect one’s identity, and thus as a beneficial mechanism to the individual, we expect it to have much more negative consequences for intergroup relations and for society at large. It can give more leeway in the mistreatment of outgroup members, or lead to their exclusion from the scope of justice (Opotow, 1990), reducing the chance of seeing such mistreatment as violating principles of harm and fairness. Morality shifting can thus be seen as a mechanism that allows people to make a virtue of evil (see Reicher, Haslam, & Rath, 2008). Once the shift occurs, further actions are even more likely to be interpreted from a loyalty/authority perspective rather than from a harm/fairness perspective.

This seems like it may be part of the cult attractor; and is also a good reason to keep your identity small; it effectively means that your ingroup doing harmful things can act as a murder pill for you.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 19 October 2012 10:28:01AM 4 points [-]

Maybe this is how "being a member of a group which slowly shifts towards evil" feels from inside: Increasingly realizing the importance of loyalty, and that fairness is not as important as it seemed once.

So when you notice yourself thinking: "well, technically this is not completely fair, but our group is good and we do many good things, so in the long term I can do more good by sticking to my group than by needlessly opposing it on a minor issue", you have an evidence of your group becoming just a little bit more evil.

(To be precise, "a little bit more evil" can still be predominantly good, and can still be your best available choice. It's just good to notice this feeling, especially if it starts happening rather frequently.)

Comment author: taelor 21 October 2012 02:12:53AM *  0 points [-]

In gist, if your ingroup does things that harm others, you are likely to subsequently shift your moral attitudes away from principles that tell you that harming others is wrong, and towards principles that value loyalty and obedience.

A more generalized version of this would read: "if your ingroup does [x], you are likely to subsequently shift your moral attitudes away from principles that tell you that [x is bad], and towards principles that [tell you that x is good as long as it's your ingroup doing it]." The chapter's from Cialdini's Influence social proof and identity self-modification seem relevent.

Comment author: ciphergoth 19 October 2012 11:27:31AM 1 point [-]

Decision theory and selfish donating

Suppose an author I like says she'll write a new work if she gets enough donations. Under CDT, it's clear to me that it can't make sense for me to donate - my donation can't increase the probability of me reading the book enough to pay for the cost, and there are much more efficient ways for me to give altruistically. What do other decision theories have to say about this?

Comment author: Vaniver 19 October 2012 02:41:32PM *  0 points [-]

As far as I can tell, any decision theory that disagrees with CDT in this case is mistaken. The author (or you) need to sweeten the deal; either the benefits need to be better, or the cost needs to be lower. Typical ways to improve the benefit are to attach status or other goods to the donation- whenever I talk about the Kickstarter projects I back, I make sure to mention that, you know, I backed them.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2012 07:17:58AM *  0 points [-]

You missed an opportunity here. ;)

whenever I talk about the Kickstarter projects I back (like these: [link] [link] [link]), I make sure to mention that, you know, I backed them.

Comment author: Vaniver 22 October 2012 06:59:51PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, but the conversation is about collective patronage in general, not about specific projects, and it seemed like it would detract from my point to also brag with my comment.

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 04:41:24PM 0 points [-]

Fuzzies?

Comment author: blashimov 19 October 2012 05:39:53PM 3 points [-]

Apologies if sidetracking a hypothetical into the real world: kickstarter attempts to solve this problem.

Comment author: DaFranker 19 October 2012 07:37:37PM *  2 points [-]

TDT has to say that if the scenario where everyone donates you win, and you know that everyone else is using TDT or that the distribution of decision algorithms is likely to give sufficient "donate" outputs to make it better expected utility, then you should donate. Of course, if you have reliable data on others' decision algorithms, I'm pretty sure CDT and EDT and any other decision theory I've read about will boil down to an expected utility calculation or something pretty close.

Basically, as Vaniver says, all good DTs pretty much agree on this. TDT, CDT and EDT all agree that if you have common knowledge of a sufficient number of other people using the same decision theory (or, with more complicated calculations, various possible theories including those three) are interested in the book, you should all donate. This common knowledge, however, is usually the extremely costly, high-information-value part - the part about figuring out whether to donate or not seems trivial by comparison.

Comment author: wedrifid 19 October 2012 09:06:25PM *  3 points [-]

Basically, as Vaniver says, all good DTs pretty much agree on this. TDT, CDT and EDT all agree that if you have common knowledge of a sufficient number of other people using the same decision theory (or, with more complicated calculations, various possible theories including those three) are interested in the book, you should all donate. This common knowledge, however, is usually the extremely costly, high-information-value part - the part about figuring out whether to donate or not seems trivial by comparison.

I don't think this is correct. The CDT agents would all agree that they all should donate and would support the implementation of a simple mutual commitment protocol. If they couldn't arrange a way to compel each other to not defect on the commons problem they would be sad but defect themselves. Fortunately there are already existent online donation systems are sufficient. You just need one of the ones that returns pledged funds if the target goal isn't met and a carefully calculated target goal.

At the extremes of perfect CDT agents you'd have to fiddle with the details a little more and, for example, make it forbidden for one agent to donate twice in order to allow that any will even donate once. But we can assume either all those details are handled or the CDT agents aren't quite that ridiculous and consider the precommitment mechanism adequate. Another thing they would do is arrange a taxation system enforced by people with guns with the relevant commons problems to be solved specified by (necessarily compulsory) voting.

Of course, the other thing groups of CDT agents would do is arrange a free market capitalism system wherein products are payed for and people who don't pay don't get the stuff. A more efficient system would also allow the author easy access to a loan based on the awareness of the loan giver of the desire for the books. Then she would actually get most of the money from the sales of said books.

Comment author: Vaniver 20 October 2012 05:36:58AM 0 points [-]

A more efficient system would also allow the author easy access to a loan based on the awareness of the loan giver of the desire for the books. Then she would actually get most of the money from the sales of said books.

Right- where again the primary block is the mutual information required.

Comment author: wedrifid 19 October 2012 09:34:30PM 2 points [-]

Suppose an author I like says she'll write a new work if she gets enough donations. Under CDT, it's clear to me that it can't make sense for me to donate - my donation can't increase the probability of me reading the book enough to pay for the cost, and there are much more efficient ways for me to give altruistically. What do other decision theories have to say about this?

Short answer: CDT doesn't donate. EDT, TDT and UDT all donate (assuming enough others are mutually known to be like you).

TDT was literally made for this kind of situation (because it's just a Newcomblike problem). UDT differs from TDT only in areas a bit more obscure than this. EDT is also designed to handle this perfectly too (ie. to get you the book for minimal price). If you donate evidence does suggest that enough people will donate to get you the book but if you don't donate evidence suggests that you will not.

Comment author: Larks 22 October 2012 04:32:57PM 1 point [-]

assuming enough others are mutually known to be like you

where this assumption is so restrictive the real answer is probably "don't donate."

Comment author: gwern 22 October 2012 07:36:17PM 1 point [-]

Thus we see that assurance contracts can be useful even for a population EDT/TDT/UDT agents.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 19 October 2012 01:27:46PM 4 points [-]

Steven_Bukal writes:

I launched a project this week to replace [physical books] with digital versions which is moving at a decent rate of ten shelves a day.

Some questions, for anyone who uses digital books a lot: what readers -- both hardware and software -- do you recommend, and why? What determines whether you obtain a book on paper or as bits? Do you find the usability problems I list below?

I don't have an e-reader, although I do have computers and the Mac Kindle application. But I've never bought an e-book, because the convenience of a book that takes up no space has not yet outweighed the problems I see with them, even though the space that paper books take up is a major problem for me.

  • An e-book can vanish into thin air if the publisher decides to un-publish it. This has actually happened.
  • All the other obvious DRM issues.
  • I can't easily consult half a dozen books at once.
  • I can't flip through an e-book with anything like the convenience of a physical book.
  • Until we get A3-sized Retina screens the visual bandwidth will be nothing like as great as with paper.
  • The paper format has a record of compatibility of many times the entire history of computing. I have books that were manufactured more than a century ago, and they're as readable as when they came off the press.
  • I've seen enough people's accounts of dreadful usability problems in the reading software to conclude that most of it is written by dolts.

I used to print out scientific papers for reading, but I stopped that some years ago and only print them now when there's something I need to study intensively, at which point most of those usability considerations kick in. At this point, I can't see myself buying e-books except for the sort of mid-list SF where I would drop the physical book in a charity bin after reading.

Comment author: shminux 19 October 2012 03:07:34PM 0 points [-]
  • DRM issues: download an unencrypted backup copy, or de-RM your own.
  • Search: use desktop search that indexes unencrypted books.
  • Flip through, multi-open: yeah, it's a problem. Especially for scientific papers.
  • Visual bandwidth: I cannot relate, I read just as fast on any screen as on paper, with no noticeable eye strain. Also, audiobooks for driving.
  • Compatibility: how many old books you own are not available in digital form? Presumably, as formats change, the books get converted.

Personally, I don't buy physical books anymore, though I so have a (small) library where some old books would be hard to find online.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 19 October 2012 03:57:31PM *  2 points [-]

Visual bandwidth: I cannot relate, I read just as fast on any screen as on paper, with no noticeable eye strain.

Pictures?

Compatibility: how many old books you own are not available in digital form?

I don't know. I shall check.

ETA: I have checked. Of the last 30 books I bought (a number decided by "ok, that's enough"), 13 are available as e-books (determined by looking them up on Amazon). Every book in the sample published since 2010 was available on Kindle; only two books published before then were (2002 and 2006).

VincentYu mentioned 1DollarScan, a service for (destructively) scanning books to PDF, but transatlantic shipping costs for a thousand books, plus scanning at $3 per book make it rather expensive for me to make a serious dent in my book stacks.

Presumably, as formats change, the books get converted.

That's a large presumption. Electronic documents easily die of obsolescing formats. "If it doesn't survive, it wasn't important" is not a good rule -- ask any historian.

Comment author: shminux 19 October 2012 04:47:40PM 0 points [-]

Visual bandwidth: I cannot relate, I read just as fast on any screen as on paper, with no noticeable eye strain.

Pictures?

What about them?

Presumably, as formats change, the books get converted.

That's a large presumption. Electronic documents easily die of obsolescing formats.

I'm wondering if this has been studied.

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 08:09:44PM 0 points [-]

Pictures and graphs generally work fine on newer works but I find that charts can be pretty badly optimized on older works that have been adapted cheaply. I read comics on my iPhone but the comics app is much more optimized for this than ereaders are.

Comment author: latanius 20 October 2012 05:41:11AM 1 point [-]

Try k2pdfopt! I use it all of the time with scientific papers, with lots of formulas, and it works quite well. It practically converts the pdf to images and slices them up, outputting another pdf, but the size increase is not too significant (still usable file sizes with multiple-hundred page long books).

Comment author: drethelin 20 October 2012 05:54:27AM 0 points [-]

Thanks! This isn't actually useful to me since I read almost nothing really hardcore on my phone but it's good to know about.

Comment author: VincentYu 19 October 2012 03:41:42PM *  1 point [-]

I keep all of my books as PDFs on Mendeley. If a PDF is not available, I buy a hard copy through Amazon and send it to 1DollarScan to be converted to a scanned PDF.

I can't easily consult half a dozen [e]books at once.

In terms of screen estate, I agree, but in terms of looking for something in textbooks, I find it much easier to consult multiple ebooks at once, since I can easily search through tens of them in a second.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 02:41:41PM 7 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 03:23:03PM 0 points [-]

Does the LessWrong community have a consensus on the subject of moral accountability, to the same extent that it has a consensus on things like free will and reductionism? If so, what is that consensus?

My opinion on the subject is, essentially: it's irrational to think people are morally culpable for their actions because their behavior is completely contingent upon their neurochemistry, which they have no control over. You can't blame a psychopath for having the specific cognitive makeup that made him a psychopath. Also, things outside of his control such as environment, parenting, etc. went into making him a psychopath. So trying to put "blame" on him for doing something bad, or wanting to see him suffer "because he deserves it", is irrational. Standard determinism, really. Not a very unique or original perspective, but one that's quite at odds with the view of the general population.

I've never really seen this mentioned very much on this website. Do LessWrongers generally take this view? Are there some good articles, both on and off LessWrong, that talk about this in much detail (whether they're arguing for or against my position)? I'd appreciate it if someone recommended some to me, as I find this subject fascinating.

Comment author: jimrandomh 19 October 2012 04:29:55PM 6 points [-]

Does the LessWrong community have a consensus on the subject of moral accountability, to the same extent that it has a consensus on things like free will and reductionism?

I don't know if this is a matter of consensus, but I generally see it as a matter of translating from third-person deontology to consequentialism by way of third-person virtue ethics and game theory: rather than work with concepts like "culpability" directly, I ask first whether an act is evidence that someone's likely to do other bad acts, and how well that risk can be mitigated, and second whether punishing that sort of act would make it rarer by enough to outweigh the cost and damage of punishing.

Comment author: drethelin 19 October 2012 05:02:50PM 0 points [-]

Moral Accountability is a lot like justice: It has a lot of psychological hooks in the human mind that make it very useful for enforcing how you want your society to be, and in the ancestral environment was probably linked far more closely to utility than it is today. The on margin effects of either cultural edifice might be good or bad but we should be careful about trying to dismantle either one.

Comment author: Nisan 19 October 2012 07:20:11PM *  0 points [-]

There is actually an article here titled Causality and Moral Responsibility. You may want to read the linked prerequisites first.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2012 07:30:44AM 2 points [-]

What you say is true to some extent, but there's also the fact that holding people morally responsible actually changes their behavior, and if we didn't hold anyone morally responsible for anything, people would behave worse.

Comment author: Larks 22 October 2012 04:31:28PM 1 point [-]

their behavior is completely contingent upon their neurochemistry, which they have no control over.

People do have control over their neurochemistry. Invoking the classic compatabilist conception of free will, if they wanted to have different neurochemistry they would.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 12:14:11AM *  3 points [-]

99 clever tips to make your life easier

I'm hoping that these will not just be useful in themselves, but also inspire a more ingenious attitude.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 20 October 2012 02:46:24AM *  2 points [-]

I think you left something out of this comment. Probably most of it.

added: In the likely event that Arundelo is correct, the broken code will appear when you click the edit button and you can clean it up.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 05:52:44AM 0 points [-]

Thanks-- yes, I'd put a return after one of the parenthesis, and more importantly, didn't check on the comment before I left for the evening.

Comment author: arundelo 20 October 2012 03:38:58AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 10:14:40AM *  5 points [-]

Related to: Denying the Cat: A Wonderful Chesterton Quote

I attribute [god becaming BFF rather than The Law] to the material comfort of modern existence, it encourages metaphysical optimism that wasn't tenable when everyone was regularly confronted with extreme suffering

Seems plausible. We still do have extreme suffering thought, we just don't see it in our day to day lives. Aguably we are worse people from a virtue ethics perspective.

I don't think we have good reasons for metaphysical optimism regardless of that issue however. My argument against it is anthropic. Assuming there are many possible metaphysics, a position that might be trivially false, I don't know enough to comment on that, we can infer that human values being complex only a tiny fraction of them are favourable.

Our physical surroundings can't help but be at least somewhat favourable. We can't help but be on a planet in the goldilocks zone in a universe with its particular value for the gravitational constant, because if we weren't there wouldn't be anyone around to make the observation.

When it comes to metaphysics we most certainly can make observations in a universe (metauniverse?) where the metaphysics have horrible things in store for us.

This argument works for the laws of our universe too. They are provably minimally friendly to the development of intelligence, but are very likely not friendly to its long term survival or flourishing. And all this is assuming an uncaring universe a caring one may be much worse in the uniquely horrible way an almost friendly AI would be.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

--H. P. Lovecraft

Comment author: carey 20 October 2012 04:12:19PM *  1 point [-]
  • Is it useful to learn to REM-nap even though I don't plan to sleep polyphasically? Is it worth going through adaptation?
  • where is a summary of the evidence for polyphasic sleeping, and likewise for paleo diets?
  • do you think rationality is a more contagious idea than effective altruism?
Comment author: gwern 21 October 2012 01:30:42AM 1 point [-]

Is it useful to learn to REM-nap even though I don't plan to sleep polyphasically? Is it worth going through adaptation?

I don't entirely follow... Is there such a thing as 'learning to REM-nap' without the proposed mechanism of the pressure of sleep rebound forcing a REM rebound during the space of a nap?

Comment author: carey 21 October 2012 02:58:00AM *  0 points [-]

I mean I am interested in undergoing adaptation through sleep deprivation, then something like uberman then everyman.

It would not be viable for me to stay in a polyphasic schedule next year. Ultimately, I will have to return to something largely along the lines of segmented or monophasic. Still, I have heard that undergoing polyphasic-style adaptation can help you to become acclimatised to getting REM sleep in a 20-30 minute period, something I currently can't do, but might be useful if I have a sleep debt or if I know I'm going to do an all-nighter etc.

So the idea is adapting to polyphasic then switching back to segmented or monophasic. Would I expect to nap better afterwards? Is this likely to be useful or worthwhile?

Comment author: gwern 21 October 2012 03:06:07AM 0 points [-]

O. I dunno. I have some more doubts about polyphasic sleep these days; last time I checked in the Zeo forums, no one had posted a complete writeup demonstrating a polyphasic lifestyle much less accompanying metrics that the lifestyle hadn't hurt them (I'd particularly like spaced repetition statistics). And since Zeos provide real data, much more so than blog posts claiming successful adaptation...

Comment author: Curiouskid 21 October 2012 06:22:56AM 0 points [-]

I made an outline of polyphasic sleep recently. Feel free to read it or contribute stuff that hasn't been added yet.

https://workflowy.com/shared/5c919540-f8e7-a677-bbf9-e4ebe18b2948/

Comment author: lsparrish 20 October 2012 07:15:22PM 0 points [-]

In the new sequence Highly Advanced Epistemology 101 for Beginners EY has made use of exercise questions / statements intended to be pondered prior to continuing. He has labeled these "koans" but is open to suggestions for a better word, as a koan means something a bit more specific than that to Zen people. Any ideas? Here are the "koans" from this sequence in order of appearance:

The Useful Idea of Truth

If the above is true, aren't the postmodernists right? Isn't all this talk of 'truth' just an attempt to assert the privilege of your own beliefs over others, when there's nothing that can actually compare a belief to reality itself, outside of anyone's head?

If we were dealing with an Artificial Intelligence that never had to argue politics with anyone, would it ever need a word or a concept for 'truth'?

What rule could restrict our beliefs to just propositions that can be meaningful, without excluding a priori anything that could in principle be true?

The Fabric of Real Things

"You say that a universe is a connected fabric of causes and effects. Well, that's a very Western viewpoint - that it's all about mechanistic, deterministic stuff. I agree that anything else is outside the realm of science, but it can still be real, you know. My cousin is psychic - if you draw a card from his deck of cards, he can tell you the name of your card before he looks at it. There's no mechanism for it - it's not a causal thing that scientists could study - he just does it. Same thing when I commune on a deep level with the entire universe in order to realize that my partner truly loves me. I agree that purely spiritual phenomena are outside the realm of causal processes, which can be scientifically understood, but I don't agree that they can't be real."

"Does your rule there forbid epiphenomenalist theories of consciousness - that consciousness is caused by neurons, but doesn't affect those neurons in turn? The classic argument for epiphenomenal consciousness has always been that we can imagine a universe in which all the atoms are in the same place and people behave exactly the same way, but there's nobody home - no awareness, no consciousness, inside the brain. The usual effect of the brain generating consciousness is missing, but consciousness doesn't cause anything else in turn - it's just a passive awareness - and so from the outside the universe looks the same. Now, I'm not so much interested in whether you think epiphenomenal theories of consciousness are true or false - rather, I want to know if you think they're impossible or meaningless a priori based on your rules."

Does the idea that everything is made of causes and effects meaningfully constrain experience? Can you coherently say how reality might look, if our universe did not have the kind of structure that appears in a causal model?

Comment author: Dolores1984 20 October 2012 07:35:25PM 3 points [-]

I propose that we continue to call them koans, on the grounds that changing involves a number of small costs, and it really, fundamentally, does not matter in any meaningful sense.

Comment author: lsparrish 20 October 2012 08:28:52PM 2 points [-]

There is a cost to doing nothing as well. Calling them koans potentially has the following effects:

  1. Makes people think that rationality is Zen.
  2. Makes people think Zen is rational.
  3. Irritates people who know/care more about Zen than average.
  4. Signals disrespect of specialized knowledge.
  5. Encourages a norm of misusing/inflating terms beyond their technical use.

The question is whether it is more costly to make the change or not. How costly is the change? Are the costs long-term or short-term? (The costs of not making the change are mostly long-term.)

Also relevant: Apart from avoiding the above costs, are there benefits to changing it to something else? (For example, a better term could make the articles more interesting and intuitive to beginners than "koan" does.)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 10:28:00AM *  2 points [-]

Knowing the kind of people who read LW, I guess that on reading “koan” more people will think about hacker koans than Zen kōans (also given no macron on the O).

Comment author: blashimov 21 October 2012 09:53:53PM 0 points [-]

Does anyone know of an online resource (or book) that goes through typical mental illnesses or neurological patterns that lead people to believe they've been possessed by demons? Google is swamped with religious blogs, and my google-fu is failing to cut through. Context: Somebody said (paraphrase) here's a youtube video of a guy acting kinda demonic, then everybody prays and he gets better. What is the "atheist" explanation? So I went around looking and didn't have much luck, and now I am really curious. I'm assuming that even if some are "fake," some people actually believe they are possessed. Also, yes, I know trying to convince a believer is probably a lost cause, but I'm curious for my own sake now.

Comment author: peter_hurford 22 October 2012 03:19:50AM 6 points [-]

How do a lot of you guys read so many things so quickly and retain all the knowledge? This seems like perhaps THE MOST VALUABLE skill I could learn, and I can't find ANY good resources on it!

Comment author: DaFranker 22 October 2012 06:11:23PM *  1 point [-]

I've once been told the keys were an arcane ritual called "taking good notes" combined with the Level 5 Bayesjutsu called "Condense your probability mass" and "Test your predictions".

Attempts at piercing the veil of secrecy and/or locating a tutor or manual on these rituals and techniques have proven fruitless to date. Reports of such findings have all turned out to be hoaxes or were never confirmed, potentially as the finders became part of the group which maintains the secrecy.

Comment author: PECOS-9 22 October 2012 06:14:02PM 2 points [-]

Making good cards for spaced repetition may help.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 October 2012 09:58:38PM 3 points [-]

This stuff takes practice in general. Note-taking and spaced repetition help. Maybe don't worry about best practices or "the right way" to do it at first -- anything's probably better than nothing.

One thing that can help is to always read with a goal in mind. Reflect on what you really want to get out of whatever it is you're reading. Maybe don't just "take notes" but try to build a concise summary, map out the main argument, or write a review. Look for something to bring up in conversation with a friend, or come up with three questions to ask the author. Always be noticing your confusion. Read the end-of-chapter problems before reading the chapter. (Of course it could be bad to read with the specific goal of answering a single narrow question, if you end up just scanning for the answer and missing out on other value.)

I'm reminded of an OB post from a couple years ago: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/05/chase-your-reading.html

Comment author: Epiphany 22 October 2012 04:45:09AM *  0 points [-]

An amusing thought occurred to me while reading HPMOR. Harry Potter may already be able to rule the world in chapter 6 by doing the following:

  1. Turn his mokeskin pouch inside out.
  2. Ask the mokeskin pouch for the universe.
Comment author: [deleted] 22 October 2012 04:46:36PM *  8 points [-]

Mencius Moldbug: How to Reboot the US Government

New short talk by Moldbug! :D

Is your government infected with viruses, worms, malware and spyware? Do you keep calling tech support but end up playing phone tag? Did your brother-in-law who's supposedly this big expert come over last year to fix it, but only make it worse? Do you feel frustrated, confused, apathetic and annoyed? Does your stomach cramp up every time you hear the word "change"?

Neighbor, we have just the red pill for you. Don't ask what's in it. You don't want to know. Here's a glass of water - don't think, just swallow.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 23 October 2012 02:55:31AM *  5 points [-]

The fact that government isn't as good as it says it is, or that progressive ideas aren't fully consistent doesn't mean that either are fully dispensable, nor is it particularly clear that people who want to eliminate government have to stop any minor involvement they have (like voting) in order to achieve that goal.

He's reminding me of Michael Vassar's observation that geeks want explicit language in a way that most people don't. The fact that what government is and does isn't a good match for the way government is usually described isn't a good reason for eliminating government.

His point that people generally don't know anything about governing is salient, but does he have any experience running something more challenging than a solo blog?

To my mind, democracy still has the advantage that it makes it clear to politicians that there's a limit to how badly they can get away with treating the public.

He cheats a little on the the communists vs. Nazis numbers-- 6 million is just the Jews murdered by Nazis. Another five or six million Roma, homosexuals, criminals, etc. were killed in the death camps, and some 25 million (very rough estimate) were killed as a result of the Nazi side of WWII. I have no idea whether Japan would have started its war if Germany hadn't been its ally.

This being said, I agree that communism has a worse record than Nazism, but a better reputation. However, in the US and Europe, there are violent neo-Nazis but (unless I've missed something) little or nothing in the way of violent communists, so it makes sense to be more concerned about Nazis.

My problem with him is the general problem with radicals-- he needs to offer better arguments that what he's suggesting will be reliably better than the current set-up. Speaking of Nazis and Communists, it's possible to make things a lot worse because your theory sounds so attractive.


It was amusing to see that Mencius Moldbug, Dark Lord of the Convoluted Sentence, is a pretty average speaker.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 05:49:08PM *  6 points [-]

My problem with him is the general problem with radicals-- he needs to offer better arguments that what he's suggesting will be reliably better than the current set-up. Speaking of Nazis and Communists, it's possible to make things a lot worse because your theory sounds so attractive.

I agree. A strong argument in favour of our current order (social democracy) is the Burkean conservative one. I've said in the past that Moldbug is good at diagnosing but bad at providing treatments and I think his plan as it stands is more likely to go terribly wrong than terribly right. But hey we tried socialism so many times in so many different places, and we still haven't given up on it, can't we try Neocameralism in a charter city somewhere?

However, in the US and Europe, there are violent neo-Nazis but (unless I've missed something) little or nothing in the way of violent communists, so it makes sense to be more concerned about Nazis.

There are plenty of violent left anarchists / anti-fa (Communists in the sense Moldbug is using) in Europe. To cite an example from Greece:

Protesters set fire to a Marfin Bank branch on Stadiou Street with Molotov cocktails; witnesses said that protestors marching past the bank ignored the employees' cries for help, while others chanted anti-capitalist slogans.[33][34][45] Most of the bank's employees managed to escape the burning building, but two employees who jumped from the second-story balcony were injured and two women and a man were found dead after the fire was extinguished.

Social Justice in action, I'm sure the protesters had "legitimate grievances" which foreign media where sympathetic to. Question time, if Neo-Nazis had burned down a building do you think it more or less likely for you to have heard of an incident like this? Can Neo-Nazis ever have "legitimate grievances"?

Indeed we have a ready made test case for this, check out foreign reports on Golden Dawn then compare them to their actual relevance. The double standard regarding this is ridiculous.

As is the amount of resources spent on "fighting" the far right in the EU compared to the amount dedicated to fighting the far left. Even if ceteris paribus Nazis (in the wider sense of the word) are more competent at takeovers and causing damage than Commies (in the wider sense of the word), diminishing returns have almost certainly kicked in for fighting Nazis but not for fighting Commies.

It was amusing to see that Mencius Moldbug, Dark Lord of the Convoluted Sentence, is a pretty average speaker.

Yeah Good writer =/= Good speaker. Unfortunately Eliezer seems to be another example of this.

Comment author: Alejandro1 23 October 2012 06:28:18PM 0 points [-]

I upvoted for the first paragraph. Then I wanted to cancel the upvote when I read the paragraphs after the quote about Greece (which I deemed too adversarial for a friendly discussion). In the process I discovered the nonobvious fact that one must click again in the upvote button to cancel it: clicking downvote brings it to -1 instead of just canceling the upvote.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 October 2012 07:02:35PM *  3 points [-]

Didn't meant to be adversarial towards Nancy I hope she doesn't take it that way. I was taking a strong stance that is of course political on what interests and biases Western media generally have. I edited the style, is it better now?

Comment author: drethelin 23 October 2012 06:26:20PM *  5 points [-]

Yeah, I view Moldbug as someone who looks at your house and is right when he says maybe the toilet shouldn't drain into the shower, but then suggests you can use fusion to run all your appliances and power your helicopter

Comment author: thomblake 23 October 2012 07:23:57PM 5 points [-]

I have no idea whether Japan would have started its war if Germany hadn't been its ally.

Probably. They didn't have anything like a formal military alliance until the Anti-Comintern Act of 1936, but the war in East Asia arguably started in 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria.

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 23 October 2012 11:23:55AM 1 point [-]

I didn't know he was so young.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 23 October 2012 05:41:38PM 0 points [-]

Neither did I.

Comment author: PECOS-9 22 October 2012 06:34:46PM 1 point [-]

Does anybody have ideas for potential applications of lucid dreaming? It's been discussed a bit here and here before.

Aside from seemingly being a very good source of fun, I'm trying to think of other ways to use lucid dreaming.

For instance, mental visualization/rehearsal has been shown to be effective at improving ability in various skills, so it seems likely that rehearsal during lucid dreams should have similar (and possibly greater) benefits, though I don't know of any studies looking into this.

Even if you've never lucid dreamed yourself, I'd appreciate it if some of you brainstormed some ideas for novel uses for lucid dreams.

Comment author: Jabberslythe 23 October 2012 09:45:55AM 1 point [-]

I've never heard of a study of whether improving skills via lucid dreaming works.

Two things that make me really want to learn how to do it, are free sex and improving my social skills by getting into unusual social situations that I couldn't try in waking life. I have heard anecdotal accounts of people using lucid dreaming for these purposes.

By the way, this is a really good book on lucid dreaming on the SIAI library thing account: http://www.amazon.ca/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-Laberge/dp/034537410X

Comment author: VincentYu 23 October 2012 07:52:04PM 2 points [-]

I had a brief look at the literature about a month ago and didn't find much. There is some evidence of performance enhancement from practicing motor tasks in lucid dreams (Erlacher, 2010), but the mechanism is unknown. Stumbrys et al. had two very speculative studies on asking dream characters within lucid dreams for help with problem solving (2010, 2011); they concluded that dream characters are terrible at arithmetic, but may be able to help with 'creative' tasks (I don't see good evidence for that from their data).

On lucid dream induction, Stumbrys et al. (2012) is a useful review.

Erlacher's abstract (emphasis mine):

Nocturnal dreams can be considered as a kind of simulation of the real world on a higher cognitive level. Within lucid dreams, the dreamer is able to control the ongoing dream content and is free to do what he or she wants. In this pilot study, the possibility of practicing a simple motor task in a lucid dream was studied. Forty participants were assigned to a lucid dream practice group, a physical practice group and a control group. The motor task was to toss 10-cent coins into a cup and hit as many as possible out of 20 tosses. Waking performance was measured in the evening and on the next morning by the participants at home. The 20 volunteers in the lucid dream practice group attempted to carry out the motor task in a lucid dream on a single night. Seven participants succeeded in having a lucid dream and practiced the experimental task. This group of seven showed a significant improvement in performance (from 3.7 to 5.3); the other 13 subjects showed no improvement (from 3.4 to 2.9). Comparing all four groups, the physical practice group demonstrated the highest enhancement in performance followed by the successful lucid dream practice group. Both groups had statistically significant higher improvements in contrast to the nondreaming group and the control group. Even though the experimental design is not able to explain if specific effects (motor learning) or unspecific effects (motivation) caused the improvement, the results of this study showed that rehearsing in a lucid dream enhances subsequent performance in wakefulness. To clarify the factors which increased performance after lucid dream practice and to control for confounding factors, it is suggested that sleep laboratory studies should be conducted in the future. The possibilities of lucid dream practice for professional sports will be discussed.

Comment author: FiftyTwo 23 October 2012 04:40:24PM *  1 point [-]

Can anyone recommend a short explanation of the idea of Hegelian dialectic that doesn't make me want to self-immolate?

More generally, what, if anything is worth studying/salvaging from Hegel?

Comment author: drethelin 23 October 2012 05:30:07PM 0 points [-]

http://www.panacearesearch.com/about/

Personalized medicine is back again. I can't tell whether the number of incarnations is a bad sign or if Jaan Tallinn being in on it is a powerful good sign.

https://sites.google.com/site/medicineispersonal2/our-company/our-staff

Comment author: thomblake 23 October 2012 07:27:21PM 1 point [-]

Any idea why it went poof before?