adam_strandberg comments on Stuff That Makes Stuff Happen - Less Wrong

51 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 October 2012 10:49AM

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Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 October 2012 03:06:57AM 2 points [-]

More generally, for me to expect your beliefs to correlate with reality, I have to either think that reality is the cause of your beliefs, expect your beliefs to alter reality, or believe that some third factor is influencing both of them.

I can construct examples where for this to be true requires us to treat mathematical truths as causes. Of course, this causes problems for the Bayesian definition of "cause".

Comment author: adam_strandberg 19 October 2012 06:24:00AM 1 point [-]

Can you provide an example? I would claim that for any model in which you have a mathematical truth as a node in a causal graph, you can replace that node by whatever series of physical events caused you to believe that mathematical truth.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 October 2012 07:57:16AM 2 points [-]

I add 387+875 to get 1262, from this I can conclude that anyone else doing the same computation will get the same answer despite never having interacted with them.

Comment author: Peterdjones 19 October 2012 05:42:17PM 0 points [-]

You can't conclude that unless you are aware of the contingent fact that they are capable of getting the answer right.

Comment author: chaosmosis 19 October 2012 05:51:38PM 2 points [-]

"The same computation" doesn't cover that?

Comment author: Peterdjones 19 October 2012 05:41:31PM 0 points [-]

Why would you want a mathematical truth on a causal graph? Are the transation probabilities ever going to be less than 1.0?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 20 October 2012 03:05:37AM 0 points [-]

The transition probabilities from the mathematical truth on something non-mathematical will certainly be less than 1.0.

Comment author: Peterdjones 21 October 2012 05:01:43PM 0 points [-]

And the transition probabilities to a truth will be 1.0. So why write it in? It would be like sprinkiling a circuit diagram with zero ohm resistors.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 21 October 2012 10:23:13PM 0 points [-]

Because otherwise the statement I quoted in the great-great-grandparent becomes false.

Comment author: Peterdjones 23 October 2012 10:02:50PM 0 points [-]

Inasmuch as you have stipulated that "performing the same calculation" means "perforing the same calculation correcly", rahter than something like "launching the same algorithm but possibly crashing", your statement is tautologous. In fact, it isa special case of the general statement that anyone succesfully performing a calculation will get the same result as everyone else. But why woud you want to use a causal diagrtam to represent a tuatlotlogy? The two have different properties. Causal diagrams have <1.0 transition probabilities, which tautologies don't. Tautologies have concpetually intelligible relationships between their parts, which causal diagrams don't.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 24 October 2012 03:09:35AM 0 points [-]

Observe that your two objections cancel each other out. If someone performs the same calculation, there is a significant (but <1.0) chance that it will be done correctly.

Comment author: Peterdjones 25 October 2012 08:29:25AM 0 points [-]

What has that to do with mathemmatica truth? You might as well say that if someone follows the same recipe there e is a significant chance that the same dish will be produced. Inasmuch as you are takling about someting that can haphazardly fail, you are not talking about mathematical truth.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 26 October 2012 12:35:03AM 0 points [-]

I can predict what someone else will conclude, without any causal relationship, in the conventional sense, between us.