2012 Less Wrong Census Survey: Call For Critiques/Questions

20 Post author: Yvain 19 October 2012 01:12AM

The first draft of the 2012 Less Wrong Census/Survey is complete (see 2011 here). I will link it below if you promise not to try to take the survey because it's not done yet and this is just an example!

2012 Less Wrong Census/Survey Draft

I want three things from you.

First, please critique this draft. Tell me if any questions are unclear, misleading, offensive, confusing, or stupid. Tell me if the survey is so unbearably long that you would never possibly take it. Tell me if anything needs to be rephrased.

Second, I am willing to include any question you want in the Super Extra Bonus Questions section, as long as it is not offensive, super-long-and-involved, or really dumb. Please post any questions you want there. Please be specific - not "Ask something about abortion" but give the exact question you want me to ask as well as all answer choices.

Try not to add more than five or so questions per person, unless you're sure yours are really interesting. Please also don't add any questions that aren't very easily sort-able by a computer program like SPSS unless you can commit to sorting the answers yourself.

Third, please suggest a decent, quick, and at least somewhat accurate Internet IQ test I can stick in a new section, Unreasonably Long Bonus Questions.

I will probably post the survey to Main and officially open it for responses sometime early next week.

Comments (479)

Comment author: magfrump 20 October 2012 04:01:45AM 12 points [-]

I continue to be surprised (I believe I commented on this last year) that under "Academic fields" pure mathematics is not listed on its own; it is also not clear to me that pure mathematics is a hard science; relatedly, are non-computer science engineering folk expected to write in answers?

There is no option for Associate's under degree earned, or even high school diploma. If we're not interested in the dropout rate that might be forgivable but at the least an Associate's or Trade degree is certainly not "none."

I'm fairly sure my family background qualifies as "nonreligious," this may be worth having as an option. (I don't even have weird religious uncles or anything like that.)

TYPO: Under "liberal," "moire redistribution."

Comment author: ScottMessick 23 October 2012 03:29:24AM 3 points [-]

I continue to be surprised (I believe I commented on this last year) that under "Academic fields" pure mathematics is not listed on its own; it is also not clear to me that pure mathematics is a hard science; relatedly, are non-computer science engineering folk expected to write in answers?

I second this: please include pure mathematics. I imagine there are a fair few of us, and there's no agreed upon way to categorize it. I remember being annoyed about this last year. (I'm pretty sure I marked "hard sciences".)

Comment author: Yvain 19 October 2012 11:14:46AM *  10 points [-]

Current status of these suggestions:

  • I will probably not be implementing any suggestion that requests a multi-checkbox style question, like:

"What activities do you enjoy? Check all that apply"

[] Fishing

[] Boating

[] Hiking

[] Climbing

The reason is that I haven't been able to figure out how to computer process these effectively; I end out with rows of boxes like "hiking,fishing" or "fishing,boating,climbing" and it's apparently beyond my limited skills to get SPSS to separate these out into separate chunks of information. I could do it like this:

Do you enjoy fishing?

[] Y

[] N

Do you enjoy boating?

[] Y

[] N

And so on, but the more options you want, the less happy I am doing this. Or, teach me a good way to solve this problem using Google Forms and SPSS.

  • I am reluctant to change questions that have been on the survey since previous years. For example, Will's suggestion to change the Politics question is good, except that if we did it we would no longer be able to confidently say something like "Less Wrong has gotten more liberal since the last survey". I would rather just include a political compass in the Bonus Questions, plus maybe maybe a more complicated one-word political affiliation question.

  • This is also part of my beef with "other", along with the fact that it's going to mean people who are 99% similar to one option but don't feel it perfectly describes them are instead going to pick something that gives us zero information. I very much agree with Vaniver here. I might or might not add it.

  • I'm balancing ability to totally perfectly capture all answers with ability to let people who just want to take a basic survey do that without answering a thousand mostly-similar questions. So while I understand that it might be theoretically desirable to separate out for example race vs. ethnicity, or country of birth vs. country of residence, or asexual romantic relationships versus sexual romantic relationships, I'm reluctant to bloat any section too much more than it's already bloated - especially the one on sex. I can already see someone like that tabloid reporter from a while back going "And also, the latest Less Wrong survey included 256 questions about your sex life!"

  • Can I get around the ethnicity problem by replacing "White (Non-Hispanic)" with "Latino"? It seems like it should work, but I'm suspicious because none of the US surveys I've encountered have ever done it.

  • Kind of want to avoid beating a dead basilisk.

  • IQ suggestions sound good.

  • ACT suggestion sounds good.

  • Most other bonus question suggestions sound good.

  • Happy to include Big Five test, AQ test, etc in the Unreasonably Long Bonus Questions section.

  • Will fix the Singularity question

  • Will probably fix moral views question to mirror PhilPapers version, even though that screws up past-survey-comparison

  • Will correct all typos

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 03:45:36PM 15 points [-]

Kind of want to avoid beating a dead basilisk.

If you don't beat it, someone else will, as XiXi, RationalWiki, and that newspaper demonstrate; and by omitting a question on it, we lose the ability to be able to point out that the overwhelming majority (or whatever it turns out to be) disagreed with that moderation decision. This would be one of the few questions which is genuinely useful, as opposed to interesting.

Comment author: Halfwitz 26 April 2014 06:15:27PM *  4 points [-]

Good call here, btw. I've been going through random reddit comments to posts that link to LessWrong (http://www.reddit.com/domain/lesswrong.com), discarding threads on /r/hpmor /r/lesswrong and other affiliated subs. The basilisk is brought up far more than I expected – and widely mocked. This also seems to occur in Hacker News, too – on which LessWrong was once quite popular. I wasn’t around when the incident occurred, but I’m surprised by how effective it’s been at making LessWrong low status – and its odd persistence years after its creation. Unless high IQ people are less likely to dismiss LessWrong after learning of the basilisk, it’s likely significantly reduced the effectiveness of LessWrong as a farm league for MIRI.

It really is amazingly well-optimized for discrediting MIRI and its goals, especially when amplified by censorship – which is so obviously negatively useful.

I wonder if EY actually thinks the basilisk idea is both correct and unavoidable. That would explain things.

Comment author: gwern 05 August 2014 10:02:14PM 3 points [-]

It really is amazingly well-optimized for discrediting MIRI and its goals, especially when amplified by censorship – which is so obviously negatively useful.

It works much better than the previous go-to slur, cryonics and freezing heads, ever did. I'm not sure why - is it the censorship aspect? Or is it the apparent resemblance to Pascal's wager?

Comment author: Halfwitz 30 November 2014 05:42:34AM 1 point [-]

Or is it the apparent resemblance to Pascal's wager?

That and believing in hell is more low status than believing in heaven. Cryonics pattern matches to the a belief in a better life after death, the basilisk to hell.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 11:59:57AM *  4 points [-]

I will probably not be implementing any suggestion that requests a multi-checkbox style question... [examples] The reason is that I haven't been able to figure out how to computer process these effectively; I end out with rows of boxes like "hiking,fishing" or "fishing,boating,climbing" and it's apparently beyond my limited skills to get SPSS to separate these out into separate chunks of information....[examples] Or, teach me a good way to solve this problem using Google Forms and SPSS.

I assume you can put the spreadsheet in excel, yes? Excel is much more powerful than Google docs, and I don't know SPSS.

If so, what you need is to add columns for each option, and put in the relevant version of the line below:

=IF(ISNUMBER(SEARCH("hiking",A1)),"hikes"," ")

This will search the text in box A1 (assume column A is the one with answers like "hiking, swimming, sailing" or whatever), and if it contains the text "hiking" will write "hikes", and if not will write nothing (or "doesn't hike")

If I didn't explain well enough, let me know!

ETA: And if you don't mind just having "TRUE" and "FALSE" as your output (instead of "hikes" and " ") then you can also just use

=ISNUMBER(SEARCH("hiking",A1))

Comment author: Yvain 21 October 2012 10:56:22PM 1 point [-]

Thank you. I'm going to try this, and I might ask you for more help if I can't get it to work on my own.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 October 2012 06:59:51PM 3 points [-]

And so on, but the more options you want, the less happy I am doing this. Or, teach me a good way to solve this problem using Google Forms and SPSS.

For those issues like these stats.stackexchange is perfect. I put up the issue as a question: http://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/40771/separating-a-string-of-comma-separate-values-in-spss

Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 08:28:03PM *  4 points [-]

Kind of want to avoid beating a dead basilisk.

But it's an important step in basilisk preparation, especially for creatures without hands or proper surgical equipment. Remember that basilisks are also poisonous, so should be emptied of poison before cooking.

See also this method for preparing cuttlefish.

Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 03:12:50PM 2 points [-]

I will probably not be implementing any suggestion that requests a multi-checkbox style question...

Wow, the way Google Docs presents that data is really annoying for analysis. Normally, each option would be given its own column in the data (as though it were a 'Yes/No' like you suggested).

A bit of code from here for splitting a csv field in SPSS:

DEFINE !parse (var=!TOKENS(1) /nbval=!TOKENS(1))
COMPUTE !var=CONCAT(RTRIM(!var),';').
STRING #str(A8).
VECTOR !var (!nbval F8.0).
COMPUTE #beg=1.
LOOP #cnt=1 TO !nbval.
+COMPUTE #str=SUBSTR(!var,#beg).
+COMPUTE #end=INDEX(#str,';')-1.
+DO IF #end=-1.
+ BREAK.
+END IF.
+COMPUTE !var(#cnt)=NUMBER(SUBSTR(#str,1,#end),F8.0).
+COMPUTE #beg=#beg+#end+1.
END LOOP IF #end=-1.
EXECUTE.
!ENDDEFINE.
* Call the macro.
!parse var=c254 nbval=5.
!parse var=c256 nbval=5.

Replace the semicolons above with commas, and it should work. Note that nbval is the number of possible options, and this code will give warnings if fewer are selected.

Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 03:17:42PM 4 points [-]

Actually, what I'd recommend doing for real, is moving the data to a better spreadsheet program like Open Office, doing the split programmatically there (as suggested elsewhere), and then importing the data into SPSS.

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 01:26:28AM *  1 point [-]

Political question solution:

Add an "other" option, then make a copy of the political question for THIS survey only, minus the "other" option, and ask "What would you have selected if "other" was not present?"

You can compare the results of the second question to past surveys and the first question to future surveys and therefore have a sense of whether LessWrong has moved in a particular direction.

Or, alternately, add a question below the political question saying:

"If you'd had an "other" option on the politics question, would you have used it?"

Comment author: [deleted] 28 October 2012 11:35:14PM 1 point [-]

"If you'd had an "other" option on the politics question, would you have used it?"

Or “is there any political label with which you identify more than with any of the five above”?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 09:15:41PM 1 point [-]

I am reluctant to change questions that have been on the survey since previous years. For example, Will's suggestion to change the Politics question is good, except that if we did it we would no longer be able to confidently say something like "Less Wrong has gotten more liberal since the last survey".

Then will we be forever saddled with a significantly suboptimal question? Here's a compromise solution: This year have both the old question, unchanged, and also have a new one with the five groupings as suggested: "Reactionary", "Conservative", "Progressive", "Libertarian", "Communist"

Then in following years we can keep just this new question, while having a basis for comparison between the old and the new one.

Comment author: Unnamed 21 October 2012 11:24:19PM 4 points [-]

I don't think that adding "reactionary" would have much information-benefit; it seems like reactionaries would just be splintering off from the "conservative" category, which was already very small (just 3% of respondents last year). The vast majority (97%) of people who gave a response chose liberal, libertarian, or socialist, which suggests that the way to add information-value would be to clarify or refine those categories. (Communists were under 1%.)

There was an attempt at a more detailed political survey after last year's LW census. Its breakdown (by percent) into 12 categories came out:

31 Left libertarian, moderate non-US liberal, or "liberaltarian."
28 US liberal, progressive, or social democrat.
11 Nothing like any of those.
9 Anarcho-capitalist or minarchist, but not paleo-libertarian.
5 Libertarian socialist, anarcho-socialist, or anarcho-communist.
4 Centrist or moderate.
4 I don't care about politics.
3 Paleoconservative, paleo-libertarian, alternative right, or nationalist.
1 Fusionist conservative.
1 Green, deep ecologist, or anarcho-primitivist.
1 Marxist-Leninist.
1 Neoconservative.
1 Religious conservative.

Again, most people chose something related to liberal, socialist, or libertarian. I'm not thrilled with the particular category labels from that survey, but the results do suggest that the highest value-added would come from splitting up libertarianism into subcategories, probably left vs. right (and maybe also splitting off a category for anarchic/minarchic).

But I don't know if that would be worth the trouble to do right now. For improving the annual survey, I think it would be better to take the approach of that politics survey and run smaller-scale surveys during the year to try out different ways of asking questions, rather than flooding Yvain with hard-to-implement suggestions right before census time.

Comment author: Yvain 21 October 2012 09:55:46PM *  1 point [-]

I am doubtful that switching to your version will get any fewer complaints or be any better than the old version, but on the principle of cheap testing I will include the second question. Please tell me exactly what you want for this new question, eg do you want sentence-length descriptions of each position and if so what are they?

Comment author: VincenzoLingley 19 October 2012 05:10:06PM 8 points [-]

If you plan to release the individual answers as you did last time, please keep in mind that karma alone is sufficient to identify a lot of people, so removing other identifying information makes more sense if you also round the karma (e.g. to nearest power of 10 or 5 or some other number).

You could do this when generating the xls file, or you could give karma ranges as options in the survey. If you do the former, some (small number of) people will lie about their karma to prevent you from identifying them.

Comment author: dbaupp 19 October 2012 06:43:43PM 4 points [-]

A third solution would be to ask everyone to round to the nearest 5, 10, 50 (etc.) when answering.

Comment author: VincenzoLingley 20 October 2012 07:34:21PM *  3 points [-]

As long as you mean "round to the nearest in this list", sure.

But if you mean "round 8838 to 8850", the number of people per 'option' gets too low in the high karmas. Look at the top ten disclosed karmas from the last survey: 7500, 7830, 8838, 9000, 12000, 14000, 14612, 18000, 26084, 48000.

In fact, everyone over 10000 should probably be lumped together just to account for Eliezer (so that he isn't alone in his category). He didn't disclose his karma last time, but I'm strongly in favor of a system that works regardless of the users' carefulness.

Edit: here used to be a paragraph about how a specific LW user of interest could easily be identified in last survey's data. I apologize for invading his or her privacy in my thoughtless irritation.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 10:33:12PM 6 points [-]

I'm just a bit touchy about privacy-related procedures.)

If you're touchy about privacy issues, the way to express that is NOT to out someone's anonymous survey answers. That is anti-social behavior, and implies that you are only interested in your OWN privacy while not at all valuing the privacy of others.

If you wanted to show how easy it was to find out someone's identity from the survey answers, the better course of action would have been to put in a comment something like "in fact, from last year's survey I was able to figure out the identity of at least one person using karma score as the main indicator", and then to PM Yvain personally with the information, since he could tighten security unilaterally. It is NOT acceptable to post publicly the identity of the person whose identity you discovered.

I suggest you retract your comment, and ask a mod to delete it-- especially if you are as touchy about privacy procedures as you claim to be.

Comment author: wedrifid 21 October 2012 04:16:11AM 6 points [-]

If you're touchy about privacy issues, the way to express that is NOT to out someone's anonymous survey answers.

Sure it is, if it is going to work and the expected benefits outweight the perceived costs. Demonstrating that information is ALREADY out there for those who care enough to look is sometimes going to be the only way to apply enough pressure to see things changed rather than swept under the rug. The aforementioned "costs" include costs to the speaker for rocking the boat.

That is anti-social behavior,

Sometimes it could be. That would depend on the circumstances and whether the person applying that judgement happened to value actual future privacy within said social group more than perception of past privacy in the same. Even when it is not actually anti-social it can still be judged 'uncouth' and disruptive and at best they can expect to be blamed for being the messenger.

and implies that you are only interested in your OWN privacy while not at all valuing the privacy of others.

That doesn't follow. Someone who cared only about increasing the privacy of others while not caring at all about their own (and who was equally ruthless in their approach) would take the same action. In fact making that kind of statement outright implies altruistic interests rather than selfish ones. The selfish privacy concerned individual just wouldn't bother drawing attention to themselves as someone whose privacy is worth breaching and would simply not participate in the survey. Speaking up can only serve to help others who more naive about the privacy concerns.

False (insinuated) accusation.

Comment author: VincenzoLingley 21 October 2012 12:23:15AM *  3 points [-]

I've removed that paragraph and I apologize for it.

If I may indulge in a bit of nitpicking, you misquoted me: "privacy-related procedures" is very different from "privacy issues", and I maintain that my touchiness is consistent. It is a valid position that the information leak already happened with the publication of the file (so Yvain cannot tighten security when it comes to that file), and that drawing attention to specific breaches of privacy is generally the best way to force people to think about privacy. But your position is valid too, and it was stupid of me to act as I did in a place full of people sharing your position. (Extra stupidity points for me since the place is heavily moderated.)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 02:14:52PM 1 point [-]

In fact, everyone over 10000 should probably be lumped together just to account for Eliezer (so that he isn't alone in his category).

As of now, the tenth top contributor of all times is Vladimir_Nesov with 17245 karma.

Comment author: Unnamed 20 October 2012 10:31:55PM 3 points [-]

Ranges would work. 1000+ should be high enough for the top category; on last year's survey only 9% of respondents (80 people) were in that range. On CFAR surveys we've used:

I don't have a Less Wrong account
zero or less
1-99
100-999
1000 or more

Comment author: satt 21 October 2012 04:54:21PM *  3 points [-]

Finer categories might be useful and shouldn't compromise anonymity too much, especially at the low end. This breakdown looks OK to me: no karma score mentioned (341), 0 or less (144), 1-4 (39), 5-9 (27), 10-19 (38), 20-29 (29), 30-49 (40), 50-99 (52), 100-199 (45), 200-299 (27), 300-499 (30), 500-999 (38), 1000-1999 (37) and 2000+ (43). Numbers in brackets are the number of responses in each category on the 2011 survey. Note that another survey now would get even more responses in most categories.

(Personally I'm OK with Yvain's laissez-faire approach of letting people round karma scores themselves to the degree they want. But I can see why using discrete categories to enforce privacy might be more robust.)

[Edited after army1987 posted his comment to clarify the bracketed numbers.]

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 02:10:41PM 1 point [-]

That's way too coarse IMO. I'd prefer having a write-in answer field but suggesting people to round it to one or two significant figures (depending on how concerned they are about their privacy), and maybe accepting the answer “> 5000”.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 02:31:56PM 7 points [-]

What is the purpose of the survey? An explicit purpose would help with choosing questions.

However, I'm fine with "poking around to see what might be interesting", even if that would be unBayesian.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 October 2012 12:27:46PM 7 points [-]

Do you use Spaced Repetition System learning (Anki, Supermemo etc)?

-Yes

-No

-I have never heard of Spaced Repetition System learning.

Comment author: Alejandro1 19 October 2012 03:42:54AM *  7 points [-]

In the Country question, you should clarify whether you mean citizenship, or residence.

Bonus question suggestion: Torture, specks, or undecided?

Edited: to make the question in the exact way it should be asked:

In the context of Eliezer's "Torture vs Dust Specks" dilemma, do you choose:

o Torture

o Specks

o Undecided

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 11:04:43AM *  3 points [-]

I like this question, but it should specify "What is your preferred option?" -- 'do you choose' is slightly ambiguous, as it's not clear what exactly it's asking. (it might be asking which choice do you consider the worst, depending on how someone first heard the dilemma)

Comment author: RobertLumley 19 October 2012 02:17:00AM *  7 points [-]

I don't remember my SAT score, but I remember my ACT score. I plan on simply using the equivalent SAT score, if I should not, for some reason, please say so.

Significantly upvoted things from this thread that are missing:

"We should ask if people participated in the previous surveys." - Jack

"I'd love a specific question on moral realism instead of leaving it as part of the normative ethics question. I'd also like to know about psychiatric diagnoses (autism spectrum, ADHD, depression, whatever else seems relevant)-- perhaps automatically remove those answers from a spreadsheet for privacy reasons." - Jack

"Suggestion: "Which of the following did you change your mind about after reading the sequences? (check all that apply)" [] Religion [] Cryonics [] Politics [] Nothing [] et cetera. Many other things could be listed here." - lavalamp

"Suggestion: add "cryocrastinating" as a cryonics option." - lavalamp

"When asking for race/ethnicity, you should really drop the standard American classification into White - Hispanic - Black - Indian - Asian - Other. From a non-American perspective this looks weird, especially the "White Hispanic" category. A Spaniard is White Hispanic, or just White? If only White, how does the race change when one moves to another continent? And if White Hispanic, why not have also "Italic" or "Scandinavic" or "Arabic" or whatever other peninsula-ic races?

Since I believe the question was intended to determine the cultural background of LW readers, I am surprised that there was no question about country of origin, which would be more informative. There is certainly greater cultural difference between e.g. Turks (White, non-Hispanic I suppose) and White non-Hispanic Americans than between the latter and their Hispanic compatriots.

Also, making a statistic based on nationalities could help people determine whether there is a chance for a meetup in their country. And it would be nice to know whether LW has regular readers in Liechtenstein, of course." - prase

Comment author: Jay_Schweikert 23 October 2012 03:55:47PM 3 points [-]

Agree that there needs to be a cryonics option amounting to something like "no, but planning to sign up." I'd refrain from calling it "cryocrastinating" in the survey, both because that phrase has a judgmental tinge that, even if warranted, probably doesn't belong in survey answers, and also because it's possible that you could be purposefully delaying without it being mere procrastination -- for example, maybe you anticipate starting a job in the near future that will make it significantly easier to fund a life insurance policy.

Comment author: fezziwig 19 October 2012 02:19:32PM 6 points [-]

Do you intend for your definition of 'Supernatural' to exclude e.g. Matrix Lords, or Mormon-style Gods who were once men and will raise other men to Godhood? Maybe so, in which case fair enough, but it feels weird that there's a whole class of Christian theists who'd have to give 0 for P(God).

Comment author: palladias 19 October 2012 02:11:38AM 6 points [-]

In what academic field do you currently work or study? If more than one, please choose most important.

Is this going to be asked only of people who selected "academic" for career or should language change to "In what academic field did/do you specialize"

Comment author: blashimov 19 October 2012 08:09:08AM 2 points [-]

If the latter, should there be a question about what genre your work is in? Even if it goes under "other" for example, it should be clear where artists, dancers, service industry, etc. workers go. Maybe you were a physics major and now play baseball for a living. As written, the ball player example might be ambiguous on "What academic field..." between none=unemployed or none=not employed in an academic field.

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 01:03:59PM *  5 points [-]

Lord Anthony of the House Stark has developed a technology to create copies of people. He offers you to make 99999 copies of yourself, in exchange you and your copies will have to become his serfs and live the rest of your lives as medieval subsistence farmers. Assume that:

  • Living as a subsistence farmer is less desirable than your current lifestyle, but not as much undesirable that you would wish to kill yourself.

  • If you refuse his offer, your lifestyle is not going to be disrupted by extreme events such as catastrophes or technolgical singularities.

Questions:

1) Do you accept his offer?

2) Do you believe that accepting the offer is moral, immoral, or morally neutral?

(first appeared here)

Comment author: shminux 20 October 2012 05:56:35PM 3 points [-]

Living as a subsistence farmer is less desirable than your current lifestyle, but not as much undesirable that you would wish to kill yourself.

There is a lot of room between the two. It might be worth specifying something more concrete along the EY's proposal of "lives barely worth celebrating".

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 02:31:50PM 1 point [-]

Or maybe specify what is the number p such that I'd be indifferent between becoming a subsistence farmer with probability 1 and killing myself with probability p.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 21 October 2012 03:14:59PM 2 points [-]

What's Lord Anthony of House Stark up to? I bet there's a utilitarian loss somewhere in his plans.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 06:10:01PM 2 points [-]

That's what I immediately thought about, too, but for the sake of the hypothetical I assumed he isn't doing anything extraordinarily good or extraordinarily evil.

Comment author: V_V 21 October 2012 10:43:11PM *  1 point [-]

Assume that the utility Lord Stark gains from the servitude of 100,000 instances of you approximately balances the costs he incurs in order to create the 99,999 copies, although he gets a small net gain. He would not break even if he offered to create 99,998 copies.

The utility of people other than you, your copies and Lord Stark is not affected by the transaction (there are no externalities).

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 02:15:12AM *  2 points [-]

1) No.

2) Probably morally neutral, at least in the sense that all self-inflicted harm can be considered morally neutral.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 01:29:57AM 2 points [-]

Of course not. Why the hell would I?

Comment author: V_V 21 October 2012 12:45:19PM 1 point [-]

If you were a total utilitarianist you would likely believe that accepting the offer is the only moral option.

Comment author: wedrifid 21 October 2012 01:31:31PM *  2 points [-]

If you were a total utilitarianist you would likely believe that accepting the offer is the only moral option.

You your specification doesn't make this necessarily true. You set the bounds on the utility of the subsistence farmers to "> 0", rather than "> current_you/100,000". Of course total utilitarians being what they are (crazy), it is actually only required that "bonus_utility_for_Stark + subsistence_utility * 100,000 > current_you_utility". ie. The total utilitarian would willingly submit 100,000 instances of himself to a negative utility fate worse than death if it made Stark (sufficiently) happy.

(Note the usage "total utilitarian" rather than "total utilitarianist".)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 01:01:28PM *  1 point [-]

I'm not sure copies of the same person would count. Yes, they would diverge in a while, but one of them would still have very much less relative complexity given another than different people raised as different people would.

Comment author: drethelin 20 October 2012 01:35:07PM 2 points [-]

I don't care about total utility, so arbitrarily many copies of myself with a worse life is strictly worse than one with a better life to me. The subjective experience of each one will be that they exchanged a better life for a worse one, and each one will be identical. I do not accept the offer. I think the morality of accepting this offer depends from person to person.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people would take this offer if they themselves were paid handsomely and did not have to become a serf, but their copies did.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 20 October 2012 04:39:18PM *  1 point [-]

I don't care about total utility

It's not clear what this means, and for reasonable guesses about that there seems to be no way for you to know the truth or falsity of this statement with significant certainty.

(Unless you mean that your emotional response or cached opinion is this way, which answers the original question to some extent, but in that case the specific phrase "I don't care about total utility" seems to be pretending to be an additional argument that justifies the emotion/opinion, which it doesn't seem to be doing.)

Comment author: drethelin 20 October 2012 07:23:58PM 1 point [-]

It's an emotional claim, but not unthought about.

But what I mean is I do not see adding entities that slightly prefer being alive to dying as worth doing. I don't think the total count of utility that exists is important. I value utility for existing entities. I would prefer a world of 10 thousand very happy people to 10 billion slightly happy people.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 October 2012 12:31:22PM 5 points [-]

What is the probability that supernatural events, defined as those involving ontologically basic mental entities, have occurred since the beginning of the universe?

What does "ontologically basic mental entities" mean?

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 01:55:26AM *  24 points [-]

Bonus questions:

  • Do you approve or disapprove of Eliezer's moderation of Roko's basilisk?
  • How many times have you read or edited the LessWrong.com wiki in the last month?
  • Drug use: caffeine, the amphetamine family (eg. Adderall or Ritalin), modafinil, nicotine (could be phrased to be either binary or weekly or monthly)
  • Perhaps a question about whether one reads Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?
  • Big Five personality test? Shortest, short, long.

Third, please suggest a decent, quick, and at least somewhat accurate Internet IQ test I can stick in a new section, Unreasonably Long Bonus Questions.

GJP had a quick IQ test as part of their surveys, but it's not public. http://iqtest.dk takes about 20-30 minutes but is normed very hard, so you certainly don't have to worry about IQ inflation...

Comment author: jimrandomh 19 October 2012 02:12:05AM *  8 points [-]

Blur the "modafinil" question to "modafinil, armodafinil, or adrafinil", since the modafinil question is theoretically incriminating, so people are more likely to lie (or use the survey results to say bad things about us), but the blurred one isn't because adrafinil is unscheduled.

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 02:15:06AM 5 points [-]

Yes, that's not a bad idea. Would using the coinflipping technique be overkill?

Comment author: jimrandomh 19 October 2012 02:19:38AM 4 points [-]

Overkill for modafinil, maybe not overkill for the amphetamine family.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 12:14:43PM 2 points [-]

the coinflipping technique

What's that?

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 02:43:54PM 9 points [-]

Respondents are instructed to flip a coin; if heads answer yes, if tails answer truthfully. The overall difference from 50% is the real overall percentage while giving every yes answer deniability. I forget what this is called but it's common on touchy topics.

Comment author: Antisuji 19 October 2012 08:30:06PM *  4 points [-]

It's called randomized response. I remember hearing about it first a year or two ago on LW.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 10:48:29AM 6 points [-]

Drug use: caffeine, the amphetamine family (eg. Adderall or Ritalin), modafinil, nicotine (could be phrased to be either binary or weekly or monthly)

Maybe alcohol and marijuana too?

Comment author: wallowinmaya 19 October 2012 06:34:18PM 6 points [-]

And what about LSD? I would love to know how many folks here tried it.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 08:25:03PM 5 points [-]

Yeah, that too (maybe “Psychedelic drugs (e.g. mescaline, psilocybin, LSD)”).

Comment author: gwern 19 October 2012 02:42:28PM 5 points [-]

Those are more recreational, I was leaning toward enhancement.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 02:44:27PM 5 points [-]

Yeah, but I still think it would be an interesting question.

Comment author: Curiouskid 22 October 2012 12:28:06AM 1 point [-]

There should probably be a general question like "how often do you take any of the following nootropics." Tyrosine, melatonin, tryptophan, 5htp, come to mind.

Comment author: Morendil 22 October 2012 08:20:07PM 2 points [-]

I vaguely remember (but can't now find) previous discussion that taking http://iqtest.dk more than once would skew scores upward from training effect. Any idea how large that effect might be?

Comment author: gwern 22 October 2012 08:50:40PM 1 point [-]

Not really, it varies per test. (Such norms and info is what professional psychologists & psychometricians are paying for when they pay through the nose for IQ tests.)

My general impression from looking at before-afters for the RAPM/BOMAT-using dual n-back studies was that the controls would improve on average something like half a question, which would translate to maybe 2 or 3 points?

Comment author: Morendil 22 October 2012 10:44:07PM 1 point [-]

Hmm. I got 138 yesterday, and I'm pretty sure the 120 I remember entering in last year's survey was from that same online test. Wondering what' s up with that.

Comment author: Multiheaded 21 October 2012 12:37:53PM *  2 points [-]

http://iqtest.dk takes about 20-30 minutes but is normed very hard, so you certainly don't have to worry about IQ inflation...

It is? Heh, +2 self-esteem right there!

Comment author: David_Gerard 19 October 2012 07:23:34AM *  1 point [-]

Also, P(the above comment will be deleted by the mods).

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 08:59:27PM 1 point [-]

The mention of the basilisk was the main reason I didn't upvote gwern's comment.

Comment author: CarlShulman 19 October 2012 01:35:40AM 12 points [-]

You use the term "X-risk" when talking about anything that kills over 90% of the human population, regardless of whether civilization recovers or continues. "Global Catastrophic Risk" (GCR) would be a better term for the actual questions.

Comment author: peter_hurford 21 October 2012 07:23:52AM *  4 points [-]

My wishlist:

1.) I second the call for a Big Five Personality test battery.

2.) I'd like a question asking what percentage of income do you donate to charity, if any, and which charities, if any?

3.) I'd like a clarification of what "spiritual" means.

4.) I'd like to see "consequentialism" expanded into utilitarianism and non-utilitarian consequentialism.

5.) I'd like to see dietary preferences (like along the lines of vegetarian/vegan) and/or questions about concern for nonhuman animal welfare.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 11:10:01AM 1 point [-]

I'd like a question asking what percentage of income do you donate to charity, if any, and which charities, if any?

Charity is ambiguous. Donating to a favourite webcomic artist doesn't qualify as 'charity' I assume? Does donating to LessWrong? Perhaps just "what percentage of income do you donate".

I'd like to see "consequentialism" expanded into utilitarianism and non-utilitarian consequentialism

Not, I really wouldn't like that at all. I'm a consequentialist but have no idea whether I qualify for a "utilitarian" or not. Consequentialism, Deontology, Virtue Ethics are the big three categories, which are roughly well understood.

If you have separate options for utilitarian and non-utilitarian, I wouldn't know how to respond.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 06:02:45PM 1 point [-]

Does buying someone a drink or a dinner count as donating? Even if they bought me one the last time?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 01:44:37AM *  4 points [-]

Given that no label can completely describe a person's political views, with which of these labels do you MOST identify?

Under Political you really have to add a label for "Reactionary". Given how much the word "socialist" fucks Americans' brains up I'd also prefer if you used the phrase "Social democratic" to describe what you assign to Scandinavia-type politics.

Or alternatively remove the distinction between what you call "Socialist" and "Liberal", which seems to be only a manner of degree, and place them both under the "Progressive" label -- which makes a decent enough symmetry: three options for the standard historical right-left spectrum of Reactionary, Conservative, Progressive, and two corresponding to the remodellings of society represented by the more extreme opposite views of Libertarian-Communist.

Relationship Goals " ...and currently looking for more relationship partners" " ...and currently not looking for more relationship partners"

This has problems with connotations. "Currently not looking" doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't open to having more partners, it might they're just not actively searching.

"How many children do you have" doesn't include options like "0, and I've not decided whether I want any" or "0, and though I would want to have some, it's extremely unlikely that I will ever have any." Frankly I don't see why you are confusing a question about what people have currently with what they want.

Also, it's an awkward question to ask if anyone has had a child who died. Do you mean all the children they've had, or the ones currently living?

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 09:15:02AM 1 point [-]

Also, it's an awkward question to ask if anyone has had a child who died. Do you mean all the children they've had, or the ones currently living?

Same with the sibling question. (I'd say it should depend on how old they where when they died.)

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 11:23:23PM 4 points [-]

In the “Older Siblings” question, a twin counts as 0.5, right? ;-)

Comment author: Larks 19 October 2012 06:48:31PM *  4 points [-]

"Number of Partners" should probably either read "Number of current partners" or "Prefered number of partners" for clarity.

Standard complaints about politics: Can we not use the americanised version of "Liberal"? In most of the world "Liberal" means classical liberal. (You also made a small spelling mistake in this one). Equally, Communism is a type of Socialism, and socialists aren't all liberal. Why not just have separate axis for social and economic liberality? And what about prediction markets / reactionaries?

P(X-Risk) should perhaps be called P(Not X-Risk), or re-word the question to reverse it.

Children could be split into "how many now" and "how many desired". Bad people can give a lower answer to the second than the first.

Questions:

  • 1 box or 2 box
  • Income
Comment author: Unnamed 19 October 2012 09:18:31AM 4 points [-]

The year of singularity question is unclear, and it also tries to make blank a meaningful response (which doesn't work so well because there are lots of reasons why people leave a question blank). It would be clearer to say something like: "By what year do you think the Singularity will occur? Answer such that there is a 50% chance of the Singularity happening by the year that you give and a 50% chance of it happening later or not at all. If you think that there is less than a 50% chance that the Singularity will ever happen, write "never"."

Unless you want the median time to be conditional on the Singularity occurring, in which case it would be good to make that explicit and have a separate P(Singularity) question.

Comment author: CronoDAS 21 October 2012 02:17:43AM 1 point [-]

I kind of want to answer 1876 to the Singularity question. ;)

Comment author: EricHerboso 19 October 2012 02:17:22AM 4 points [-]

Under "Part Five", you list SAT scoring, but not ACT scoring. I know far less people use the ACT, but if you're going to add in an option for SAT scores, I would also include a place for ACT scores.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 19 October 2012 04:27:00AM 10 points [-]

The hispanic ethnicity is not generally considered to be tied to a specific race. In various forms I have seen and completed recently, race and hispanic ethnicity are two separate questions. This is more accurate because it does not exclude/ignore, e.g., black hispanics who may live in or descend from Caribbean or Central American nations.

The question about children should have an option "0, and unsure about having some in the future".

It would help to provide lists of "hard sciences" and "soft sciences" so that people know what they are selecting.

There is a typo in the Liberal answer for the Political question: "moire redistribution of wealth".

Some people may come from families of mixed religious background. This question should have either a multiple-answer option (more accurate) or specify that responders should choose based on some criteria (vague, open to interpretation).

For the IQ tests, two which came up in the comments after the last survey were iqtest.dk and sifter.org/iqtest. My scores on both tests were consistent. In a reply to the previously-linked comment, gwern linked his list of online IQ tests.

ACT scores have already been mentioned as an addition to the SAT scores. I think a category for GRE general scores would also be worthwhile; the GRE has higher resolution than the SAT or ACT at the high tail. Going further on these questions, splitting up the scores into the different subject areas (math/verbal) would be nice. Of course, the GRE scoring system has been recently changed, which would necessitate two possible response areas like the SAT question has now. (There are (questionably) accurate conversions between the different scoring systems which could be used for the survey analysis and comparisons.)

Another question which might be interesting: ask responders to take the AQ test. It's not long, and it provides an inexact but standardized measure which is correlated to Asperger's/high-functioning autism. Probably better than relying on self-diagnoses, which is common.

In the Less Wrong Use question, there is a typo: "but never a top-level psost".

Comment author: jimrandomh 19 October 2012 03:11:16AM 9 points [-]

Bonus questions:

  • How many hours per week do you spend reading (anything at all, including for work and school, fiction and nonfiction, Less Wrong and other web sites).
  • How many hours per week do you spend composing text (writing or typing for work or school, blog comments, emails, diaries, stories, math papers, or anything else).
  • True Prisoner's Dilemma: Cooperator or defect?
  • Are you confused by the subject of free will? (yes/somewhat/no)
Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 19 October 2012 06:12:27PM *  7 points [-]

Most people will not have measured how many hours per week they spend reading / writing, and people's guesses about where their time goes tend to be surprisingly inaccurate.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 19 October 2012 06:12:14AM 6 points [-]

True Prisoner's Dilemma: Cooperator or defect?

This is problematic, in that it depends a lot on what I know about the person I'm playing with. If it's a total stranger I'll probably defect, if it's a copy of me or someone that I think is committed to superrationality I'll probably cooperate.

Also, just "True Prisoner's Dilemma" is pretty vague - the actual rewards and penalties matter. I'm a lot more inclined to cooperate if the cost of my opponent defecting is "lose this game of Diplomacy" rather than "be tortured for 50 years".

Comment author: RobertLumley 19 October 2012 06:26:10AM 4 points [-]

I had these same objections, but I assumed he was referencing this particular formalization.

Comment author: Nominull 22 October 2012 01:26:01AM 1 point [-]

Yes, it depends entirely on who you're playing against. If it's a rock you obviously defect, if it's a copy of yourself you obviously cooperate, and then at some point between those two it switches from one to the other. True Prisoner's Dilemma is underspecified.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 12:10:10PM 3 points [-]

If Facebook, instant messaging, lyrics on karaoke screens, etc. count as reading, then I spend the vast majority of my waking hours reading.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 05:03:58AM 2 points [-]

What about subtitles on TV shows, because my laptop speakers suck? lol

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 19 October 2012 10:07:59AM *  8 points [-]

I think it might be interesting to measure altruism somehow.

Also, my political affiliation is "clueless pragmatist": I don't know how to run my country and haven't studied the question much, but I'm open to whatever works in practice. I assume this is too rare to get its own option in the politics section? Pretty sure I've met at least one other LWer who has a similar view.

Comment author: shminux 19 October 2012 03:34:33PM *  3 points [-]

I like the "clueless pragmatist" option.

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 01:08:54AM *  1 point [-]

I'm sort of like this, except my view is "I'm pragmatic and I might not be knowledgeable enough to know what to do but I'm knowledgeable enough to have noticed that the political machine is clueless".

I requested "other" and explained my view a bit.

Comment author: ikrase 21 October 2012 08:15:27AM 1 point [-]

I can do one better! Clueless Overly Aggressive Pragmatist With A Grudge!

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 19 October 2012 07:35:59AM *  8 points [-]
  • Last time some commenters went nuts when a noticeable portion of repliers picked the "Socialist" political choice. The description "for example Scandinavian countries" is kinda priming here, since some responders actually are from Scandinavian (or other Nordic) countries. So the question reads for me as "do you like the not that good but sorta working politics at where you live or the stuff the horrible American (and former Soviet Union and present North Korean for Communism) politicians are doing that you only hear about when it goes more or less horribly wrong in some way?"

The distinction between "liberal" and "socialist" is a bit confusing in any case. Without the "like this stuff in this country", I'd describe the Finnish political mainstream as "liberal" with sizable socialist contingent on the left and religious, populist and Swedish-speaking (don't ask) minority parties on the right. If seen as the Evil Political Enemies, the populist group kinda matches up with the conservative one in the query, but low taxes are the mainstream Coalition party's thing, while the religious party is mostly just traditional values and the populist party is traditional values and isolationism. I mostly identify the Coalition party with American liberals, actual social values wise.

  • I'd like to actually see David Gerard's suggestion of asking about elementary quantum physics calculation skills in addition to asking for the opinion on many-worlds. Unfortunately I don't have elementary quantum physics calculation skills so I can't contribute a question.

  • Also, maybe ask about anonymity:

o I post using my real life name.
o I post using a pseudonym, but my real life name is easily discoverable.
o My real life name isn't easily discoverable, but it wouldn't terribly inconvenience me if it were.
o Someone being able to connect my Less Wrong account to my real life identity would be very bad.

  • Inspired by a recent question: "How would you describe Less Wrong to someone who has never heard of it in 140 characters or less?"
Comment author: Kindly 20 October 2012 12:54:39AM 3 points [-]

Someone being able to connect my Less Wrong account to my real life identity would be very bad.

A milder version of this option seems to be in order. I don't think it's the end of the world if someone discovers my real identity, but I would much rather avoid it.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 21 October 2012 02:04:10AM 2 points [-]

You'd want to define 'real life name' for the anonymity bit. I don't post under my legal name and don't think it's possible to find it given my chosen one, but I go by my chosen one rather than my legal one in most cases, and it's actually possible to find my address given my chosen name and a bit of googling, which feels more like 1 or 2 than 3 to me.

Comment author: Salutator 19 October 2012 06:23:38AM 8 points [-]

The race question doesn't make much sense for Europeans. I could answer White (non-Hispanic) even though the Hispanic category doesn't exist here. But what should Spaniards answer?

Comment author: ema 19 October 2012 09:57:55AM *  4 points [-]

But what should Spaniards answer?

i think "White (non-Hispanic)". Not that i understand the category Hispanic, but putting Swedish and Greek people in one category while excluding Spaniards seems deeply weird to me.

Comment author: Decius 19 October 2012 03:04:58PM 2 points [-]

Race is weird.

Only people from Spanish-Speaking Central America should identify as Hispanic. A Mexican-Spaniard should identify as Hispanic, while a Spaniard-Mexican should not.

HOWEVER, someone born in Mexico to White Hispanic parents but who was adopted by French parents in France and raised by them would probably identify as French.

Comment author: Bugmaster 20 October 2012 02:24:17AM *  7 points [-]

Here are some suggestions:

  • "Relationship Style": needs a "No particular preference" option. It does have an "Uncertain" option, but that's not the same thing.
  • "Work Status": needs options for "Self-employed" and "Independently Wealthy"; if "For Profit" covers those options, it needs to say as much.
  • "Profession": the wording is weird. It says "In what academic field do you currently work or study?", but what if I have a run-of-the-mill, non-academic day job, like loading freight or writing software ?
  • "Political": needs a "Don't know, don't care" option
  • "Religion": it may be worthwhile to split this question into two: "How many gods do you believe in ?" and "How sure are you of your beliefs ?".
  • "Meetups": it may be worthwhile to include an option for "No, but I totally would, if there was one near where I live"
  • "P(Aliens)": I may be exposing my own ignorance here, but what does "observable universe" mean ? For example, if there are aliens on some planet that orbits a star 1000 light years away, and those aliens evolved intelligence 10 years ago, do they count ?
  • "P(God)": what about gods who exist, yet did not create the universe ?
  • "Privacy Checkbox": replace "ie" with "i.e."

I also second the suggestion to round karma to the nearest 10, or better yet 100.

Suggested questions:

"How many languages do you speak fluently ?"
"What is your primary spoken language ?"

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 19 October 2012 01:38:19AM 7 points [-]

I strongly recommend having something about being bi/multi-racial.

You may want "other" included for political beliefs, possibly even including a text box. And I wouldn't mind "How sure are you about your political beliefs?"

I don't know how weird this is, but I'm not sure what my family actually believed. They sent me to Hebrew school, but they didn't talk about religion.

I'm interested in what LWers are doing or have done to improve their lives, and how it's working out for them, but perhaps this should be a separate post or a different survey.

Comment author: Vaniver 19 October 2012 01:58:30AM *  5 points [-]

You may want "other" included for political beliefs, possibly even including a text box.

For analysis? No, not at all. Forcing people to pick from five bad options is way better than letting them say whatever they want. I seem to recall previous versions having a text box where people could write whatever else they wanted about politics, which was then ignored, and I think that's a good solution.

I'm interested in what LWers are doing or have done to improve their lives, and how it's working out for them, but perhaps this should be a separate post or a different survey.

Something like "how many changes to your life have you attempted in the last year?" might be interesting, but the trouble there is one person might think a change smaller than "moving to another city" isn't worth mentioning, while another person might count that they switched brands of oatmeal. That could be somewhat informative, insofar as that number gives an idea of how fluid people see themselves as.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 22 October 2012 01:04:02AM *  3 points [-]

I'd like to see finer-grained surveying of what fields people work in. Reading this post (esp. PZ Myers' take on WBE roadmap) made me update in the direction of cryonics and uploading not working, and also made me more worried about information cascades on LW in fields where users have little collective expertise.

(It might also be interesting to have another question along the lines of: how informed/accurate does the stuff you've read on LW regarding your field seem to be? What's something important going on in your field that LW should be discussing? Etc. Dunno if the first question is meaningful for most fields though; I'm just throwing this out there.)

Comment author: gwern 22 October 2012 03:43:55AM 3 points [-]

So let me get this straight. You can read PZ Myer's link, where he states in all serious

You’re just going to increase the speed of the computations — how are you going to do that without disrupting the interactions between all of the subunits? You’ve assumed you’ve got this gigantic database of every cell and synapse in the brain, and you’re going to just tweak the clock speed…how? You’ve got varying length constants in different axons, different kinds of processing, different kinds of synaptic outputs and receptor responses, and you’re just going to wave your hand and say, “Make them go faster!” Jebus. As if timing and hysteresis and fatigue and timing-based potentiation don’t play any role in brain function; as if sensory processing wasn’t dependent on timing. We’ve got cells that respond to phase differences in the activity of inputs, and oh, yeah, we just have a dial that we’ll turn up to 11 to make it go faster.

The comments call him out on it in the original post at http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/07/14/and-everyone-gets-a-robot-pony/ and he stands by it. And you're worried about information cascades on LessWrong?

(Incidentally, in a post on GRG, it was mentioned that the first mouse brain is being examined by the Brain Preservation Prize are showing preliminary signs of excellent fixation, specifically "perfectly preserved ultrastructure throughout the brain".)

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 22 October 2012 04:15:34AM *  2 points [-]

I did find that objection less persuasive. I didn't say PZ's post was perfect.

I don't think doing rationality better than PZ should be our goal; I think figuring out what's true should be our goal. I do think that semi-ridicule by a professional biologist should be taken as evidence that the authors of WBE roadmap know less than they think (edit: but see Carl Shulman's comment). Beyond that, I'm out of my depth and happy to be corrected on specifics.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 22 October 2012 07:56:19AM 5 points [-]

Argument screens off authority. When an esteemed biology writer dismisses a claim about computer simulations of life-forms by using an argument based on a serious confusion regarding computation (not regarding biology), his reputation as a biologist counts for nothing.

Any computer simulation can be run faster than real-time given adequate processing power; and this has nothing to do with whether the process being simulated can be accelerated.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 23 October 2012 12:31:04AM *  2 points [-]

Myers writes:

Sure, you can just arbitrarily set the time-scale of the simulation, but then you mess up the inputs from outside the simulation. And you can’t model a human brain in total I/O isolation without it melting down into insanity.

I didn't feel comfortable dismissing his objection out of hand, because I wasn't exactly sure what point he was trying to make. Then I read Carl Shulman's comment, and now I'm thinking it probably just didn't occur to him to simulate the brain in a sped-up virtual environment. Probably he assumed the simulation was expected to interact with the real world as flesh-and-blood humans do, just while thinking faster. If this was the goal, it seems his objection would be valid.

Comment author: Yvain 22 October 2012 05:17:55AM 2 points [-]

I am much more likely to include this in a way that is to your liking (or at all) if you give me exact questions.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 21 October 2012 01:26:05PM 3 points [-]

How about some basic probability question, like the expected value of something, or something that requires you to use Bayes' theorem?

Comment author: nancyhua 20 October 2012 08:06:57PM *  3 points [-]

Other questions:

What is your interest in joining a startup or being an entrepreneur?

What is your primary motive for your work: fame, money, recognition, helping the world, etc.?

How altruistic do you consider yourself (donate time, money, yearly, monthly, etc)?

How interested are you in meeting lesswrong readers or contributors?

This looks really fun! I can't wait to fill it out and see everyone's answers. I guess I am a person who likes internet quizzes after all.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 07:26:07PM 3 points [-]

Is there anything that seems unusual about LWers as seen at meetups and/or on the blog that hasn't been covered by existing questions?

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 11:20:51PM 3 points [-]

I'd replace “Number of Partners”, “Relationship Goals” and “Relationship Status” with one “Relationship Status” with answers Single (but not looking), Single (and looking), In a committed monogamous relationship, In one or more open/polyamorous relationships (but not looking for more partners), In one or more open/polyamorous relationships (and looking for more partners), Engaged, and Married.

Comment author: Alicorn 20 October 2012 01:31:43AM 2 points [-]

The open/poly thing is compatible with engaged/married.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 03:42:12AM 3 points [-]

Additional question- more accurate location info than just country. (To keep anonymity, would it be possible to pull this column out of the rest of the resulting spreadsheet before it is distributed or looked at?)

Option 1- Iff you are from the USA, What state do you live in?

Option 2- Please enter either your 5 digit zip-code, or the nearest city (include state or country also)

I think this is a good question, because a previous questionnaire about people's specific location was how I saw that there were enough locals to start a meetup here.

Comment author: Decius 19 October 2012 03:20:18PM 3 points [-]

Also, do the same thing for Canadian provinces, and for other countries large enough to warrant it.

Comment author: Vaniver 19 October 2012 02:15:11AM *  3 points [-]

Third, please suggest a decent, quick, and at least somewhat accurate Internet IQ test I can stick in a new section, Unreasonably Long Bonus Questions.

I think the primary free internet IQ test I've seen people use is this one, but as it's Raven's only it might introduce a skew. (I suspect many people here will do better on the related subtests of the WAIS-IV, for example.)

Comment author: Armok_GoB 19 October 2012 06:22:31PM 6 points [-]

I find it way US-centric and pigeon-holing of people, but those things are probably unfixable for anything that could be called a survey. If possible, make a narrow AI to interview subjects and compute amplitude distributions in personspace or something, it's the only way something like this could ever satisfy everyone.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 19 October 2012 06:06:33AM *  12 points [-]
  • "Political" should include an option for reactionaries OR socialist and liberal should be lumped together.
  • "Religious Views" and "Family Religion" are poorly named: theism vs. atheism is more philosophical than religious.
  • "Moral Views" will have people going argh because "Other" isn't an option. You do say "most identify with" but that still won't keep people from arghing.
  • "SAT scores": you might want to ask for age when the test was taken. Some people take it in middle school and never take it again.
  • If you have multiple LW accounts should you add up karma or just report your account with highest karma?
Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 06:50:36AM *  7 points [-]

"Political" should include an option for reactionaries OR socialist and liberal should be lumped together.

I really agree with adding the reactionary label since conservative or libertarian answers are misleading for the position of many posters from that cluster. There is a reason to think we have those, especially since they are noticed and Moldbug's blog is widely read and even cited as an example of insight porn.

I think the difference in Europe between "US-style liberal" and "socialist" is basically non-existent, we should however add a communist option, this will also keep backwards compatibility with the previous census.

Edit: I'm not sure if I missed it or if it was added since this comment was made, Communist is now an option. Still no Reactionary option.

If you have multiple LW accounts should you add up karma or just report your account with highest karma?

I assume you should pick the one that is your main public face since information given on alter egos may be misleading.

Comment author: novalis 19 October 2012 07:09:24AM 4 points [-]

"SAT scores": you might want to ask for age when the test was taken. Some people take it in middle school and never take it again.

Out of curiosity, I took the SAT as an adult and scored ~120 points higher than at age 17, on a supposedly-harder test. I suspect not being sleep-deprived had something to do with it.

Comment author: RobertLumley 19 October 2012 06:27:31AM 3 points [-]

If you have multiple LW accounts should you add up karma or just report your account with highest karma?

You should delete your sockpuppets, and stop trolling us with them.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 06:51:25AM *  8 points [-]

Lots of people have sock puppets that aren't used for trolling, for example I think Quirrell is one.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 19 October 2012 06:40:57AM 2 points [-]

Don't feed the troll.

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 19 October 2012 05:52:31AM *  5 points [-]

~All questions should have some kind of "other/not sure" answer.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 11:14:46PM 2 points [-]

And “Prefer not to answer” too.

Comment author: David_Gerard 19 October 2012 07:21:51AM *  6 points [-]

P(Many Worlds) needs also to ask if the respondent actually knows and understands the equations for practical purposes (well enough to, e.g, solve Schrodinger's equation for a hydrogen atom), since Many Worlds consists of taking the equations seriously. I think it would be of interest to know how well the respondent understands the thing they are opining a probability of.

Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 02:58:31PM 4 points [-]

The 'Relationship Status' question would usually have more options, if only for sensitivity reasons. Here's a standard one:

What is your current marital status?

  • Single, never married
  • Living together, not married
  • Married
  • Divorced
  • Separated
  • Widowed
  • Prefer not to answer

Even though you're not forcing responses on these, having a 'Prefer not to answer' is useful for two main reasons. First, it distinguishes between skipping a question on purpose and accidentally. Second, you can't de-select a radio button, so it's useful to have if you accidentally click a different option.

The 'cohabitation' option is pretty new - it's become very popular in the US and apparently seems worth tracking. A lot of people who are cohabitating are uncomfortable answering 'single' or 'married', and will often choose pretty inconsistently between the two. Similarly, widowed people might not want to answer 'single'. It should be easy to group them on the back end if you don't care about the distinction.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 19 October 2012 04:38:06PM 9 points [-]

If you're going with the "married, divorced..." etc. set of choices, I don't think "single" should be in there - rather it should be just "never married". Otherwise people who are in a relationship but not married or cohabiting will be unable to answer anything.

Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 06:17:13PM *  3 points [-]

I agree. I erred on the side of industry standard, but I endorse your change.

However, that now seems like it's asking too many questions in one, since the cohabitation question is irrelevant to whether one is divorced etc.

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 12:28:28AM *  2 points [-]

Political:

You have no option for "other". I think that if one wants to make a difference in the world, one should get involved in non-profit work, not spend a bunch of time researching candidates only to contribute an extraordinarily tiny fraction of the overall decision making power toward picking somebody that you can't be sure will do what they said they would and will most likely favor some totally unproven strategy for improving things anyway. What really clinches it for me is that I often have reasons to believe that the ideas being promoted are not worth my time. For instance, our school system is fundamentally broken in a way that no amount of tweaking can possibly fix, but I've never seen a school reform idea that addresses this. For another example: In a country where we've got so much technology that most of us are essentially carrying around tiny computers in our pockets, why do we see it as worthwhile to bicker over whether abortion should be legal when we could put all that time, money and energy into improving contraceptive technology? If we made unintended pregnancy unheard of, the abortion debate would be N/A.

Because I prefer to spend my time doing things that make more sense than this, I can't be bothered to research the different political orientations in order to choose one.

I need an "other" option if I am to answer the politics question.

Comment author: Alicorn 28 October 2012 05:39:24AM 5 points [-]

If we made unintended pregnancy unheard of, the abortion debate would be N/A.

This is not true, even ignoring the problems with making unintended pregnancy unheard of solely by improving contraceptive technology. There would still be cases of unwanted unpredictable fetal disability, conditions like preeclampsia, ectopic pregnancy, selective abortion in cases where there are many fetuses, and people changing their minds or experiencing a sudden change in pregnancy-relevant circumstances (spousal death, financial catastrophe, etc.).

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 06:16:58AM *  2 points [-]

Okay, but:

“A 2011 study reported that 49% of pregnancies in the United States were unintended in 2006, a slight increase from 48% in 2001.”

Reference: U.S. Center for Disease Control: Unintended Pregnancy Prevention.

About half of unintended pregnancies end in abortion:

“The 80 million unintended pregnancies that occur worldwide each year (38% of all pregnancies) can justifiably be deemed an “epidemic.” These pregnancies result in 42 million induced abortions and 34 million unintended births — births that contribute substantially to the annual world population growth of 78 million.”

Reference: Assn. of Reproductive Health Professionals: The Potential of Long-acting Reversible Contraception to Decrease Unintended Pregnancy.

For a person who believes abortion is murder, that looks like an epidemic of evil. For a person who believes in abortion rights, that looks like a huge need for abortion. If the amount of pregnancies where people were thinking about having abortions was very small and people usually had some sort of justification for them other than that they had caused a pregnancy before being ready for kids, I think the focus would shift to something common like child abuse.

Then again, it's possible that the commonness of a particular problem isn't a big factor in some of those people's decisions to pursue abortion as an important cause. If it is, I think the drastic reduction in abortions that would happen if we made unintended pregnancy history would probably result in those people focusing on something else.

Drastically reducing unintended pregnancy might actually be pretty easy. This is because a leading reason for unintended pregnancy may be that a lot of people do not understand contraceptive efficacy statistics. For instance, condom efficacy studies are done in one year periods, which means they're totally useless to help us determine whether they're enough protection for the duration that we want protection for (like 20 or 30 years before the females become infertile). For all we know, the failure rate adds up over the years. For a 2% failure rate, that would mean something like 50% over one's lifetime. (What statistic does that sound like?)

I tried and tried to find a condom study longer than one year and could not. I did encounter this other study on the aftermath of condoms as a sole method of contraception:

“Three hundred four women (78%) had used condoms for an aggregate total of 1178 years (average=3.9 years per woman; range=1 month-25 years). Seventy-eight women (25.6%) reported becoming pregnant while using condoms”

Reference: Journal of Family Practice: Lifetime Patterns of Contraception and Their Relationship to Unintended Pregnancies

Drastically reducing the number of unintended pregnancies might be as simple as getting people to understand these statistics and encouraging them to use enough of the right methods in combination that they actually get the low failure rate they want.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 28 October 2012 06:10:48PM 2 points [-]

It's interesting therefore that most anti-abortion folk are not too enthusiastic about contraception. It's almost as if they might be optimizing for something other than minimizing abortions, such as the promulgation of a particular moral order of society — one based on sin, guilt, and redemption — as against other ones such as harm minimization. If there is no harm, there need be no guilt and thus no redemption; harm reduction as a policy amounts to immanentization of the Eschaton.

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 07:00:04PM *  2 points [-]

Alright. I sometimes forget how irrational people can be. I have a question though: if unintended pregnancy were unheard of and people only considered abortions on rare occasions, do you think there would be as many people fighting about abortion?

(The people who do care about harm reduction could do this despite them.)

Comment author: fubarobfusco 28 October 2012 08:25:07PM 1 point [-]

If unintended pregnancy were unheard-of, human sexuality and sexual politics would be vastly different in a lot of ways ....

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 08:38:01PM 2 points [-]

Hmm. I bet you're right. But what specifically do you think would be different?

Comment author: gwern 28 October 2012 08:47:09PM 3 points [-]

Rape comes to mind. Men cannot get pregnant from rape, and rape of men is played for laughter on TV. Hence it is that men are raped more often than women in the USA, and no one cares.

Comment author: Epiphany 28 October 2012 09:00:44PM *  3 points [-]

rape of men is played for laughter on TV.

Really? blink (I quit watching television over a decade ago with the resolve that I was going to make my own life more interesting.)

Hence it is that men are raped more often than women in the USA, and no one cares.

I care. :/

I have met at least two men who have been raped. They were both raped by women, though, and not while in jail. This will probably immediately raise questions about how such a thing is possible. This page explains. (See the second and third points from the bottom.)

I'd have a hard time feeling bad for a serial killer being raped, but there are a lot of people in jail for things like drug possession and the idea of those guys being raped really bothers me.

Comment author: gwern 28 October 2012 09:54:42PM 3 points [-]

Really? blink (I quit watching television over a decade ago with the resolve that I was going to make my own life more interesting.)

Yeah. It's especially bad in media targeted at youngsters - I think Family Guy has made prison rape jokes more than once.

(I don't watch much TV anymore either; there's a long list of reasons, starting with apathy and torrenting, but somewhere on it appears 'finds male rape amusing'.)

Comment author: [deleted] 27 October 2012 03:00:14AM 2 points [-]

Ask about special diets or eating habits (e.g. paleo, atkins, vegan, vegetarian...etc)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 03:05:32PM 2 points [-]

How about a question about how much time/effort people put into politics? Into doing practical political work (volunteering, lobbying, holding office) as distinct from theory?

Comment author: JonathanLivengood 19 October 2012 10:11:57PM 2 points [-]

Mostly a curiosity question: Are you primarily interested in demographic information? Insofar as you are (legitimately) concerned that the survey is too long, I would expect you to put the questions you are most interested in up front in the survey. And I was therefore surprised to see the demographic questions first.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 October 2012 10:55:30AM 2 points [-]

Religious Background; What is your family's religious background? What are people where the parents come from different religions supposed to answer? I don't see the advantage of forcing people to check exactly one box.

I find it also hard to say whether my family has a Christian background. Neither of my parents believe in god. They however do use the organisation. I think they married in an evangelic church. My father is now married to an another woman and that marriage is blessed by the catholic church. My father is also a member of the catholic church. He pays the corresponding taxes. He self labels as humanist. My parent allowed both my sister and myself to make our own decisions about religion. My sister is baptised but doesn't believe in god. I'm not baptised and self label as ignostic. In school I took evangelical religion lessons.

What kind of background I'm supposed to select? I find it also surprising that there no "atheist" choice.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 19 October 2012 10:14:10AM 2 points [-]

In addition to asking about the rather tricky to define singularity, I'd like to see predictions for when a human level artificial general intelligence will first be made, if ever.

Comment author: blashimov 19 October 2012 07:33:59AM 2 points [-]

Under family religious views: Could you either allow us to select all that apply, or add something to the instructions about whether you want some sort of strange average, pick the best you can, or write in other? (Example: one christian parent of some sort and one atheist parent, what should I choose?)

Are ranges acceptable on some questions to reflect uncertainty, such as IQ?

Bonus questions ( or even main questions to add): Has reading something on less wrong caused you to change your mind? (Add qualifications here if desired, e.g. you updated your probability estimate by x, decided to collect more evidence then updated by x, etc.)

Comment author: Armok_GoB 19 October 2012 06:33:50PM 5 points [-]

Suggested question:

What fandoms or subcultures do you consider an important part of your identity? How important is each?

(example subcultures: Brony, goth, homestuck, juggalo, hippie, whovian(sp?), rationalist, harry potter, etc.) (identification: The HATE of the subulture is an important part of my identity ... kinda like the show I guess? ... spend a decent amount of time on related forums and provide some (fan) content ... It's my ENTIRE life!! ) ok I suck at coming up with good names for these levels or how to differentiate levels of obsession. Also this post is kinda spiraling down into rambling, but hopefully you get the idea of what info I'm after and can come up with a more formal and shorter way of expressing it.

3 text feild for subculture name and corsponding radio button for level of engagement for each should do.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 October 2012 10:32:18AM 3 points [-]

How about a write-in “Do you have any comments on this survey?” question?

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 10:45:58AM 3 points [-]
  • What's the point of the Chromosomes question? Once you know someone is a cis male or a trans female, does knowing that they have a Y chromosome tell you that much more?
  • The “White (Hispanic)”--“White (non-Hispanic)” dichotomy is weird to non-Americans, and you may want to add an “Other” answer -- or what are (say) Arabs or Maori supposed to answer?
  • I'd split the Children question into “how many children you have” (write-in) and “do you hope to have more children in the future” (with answers “yes, soon”, “yes, later on in my life”, “no” and “not sure”).
  • If you don't want to add more options to “Political” (e.g. libertarian socialist), please add a “None of the above” answer. (Also, I'd say “most strongly identify or lean towards”.) BTW “liberal” and “libertarian” have other meanings (especially outside America), but that's not a big deal given you give examples.
  • As IIRC was suggested after the last survey, you might link to a non-amateur Internet IQ test, if such a thing exists.
  • Maybe ask both total karma and last-30-day karma?
  • What counts as “intelligent life” in P(Aliens)? I'm assuming that octopus/crow/dolphin/bonobo-level intelligence doesn't count, and that humans right after the Upper Palaeolithic Revolution do.
  • In P(Cryonics) you might want to replace “average” with “randomly chosen”, if you mean the average of the probabilities.
  • “Singularity” is ambiguous -- do you mean P(singularity before the year X|singularity ever) = P(singularity after the year X|singularity ever), or P(singularity before the year X) = P(singularity after the year X or never)?
Comment author: thomblake 19 October 2012 03:00:06PM 3 points [-]

I'd split the Children question into “how many children you have” (write-in) and “do you hope to have more children in the future” (with answers “yes, soon”, “yes, later on in my life”, “no” and “not sure”).

Yes. That question is asking two different things, which a survey question should never do (in the extreme, that's called a "loaded question").

Comment author: EricHerboso 19 October 2012 02:15:26AM 3 points [-]

With which of these moral philosophies do you MOST identify? - There is no such thing as "morality"

Can you please rephrase this to "moral skepticism"? Or is there some benefit to saying it in the way you have?

Note that moral skepticism does not necessarily equate to nihilism -- error theories, fictionist accounts and moral revisionism all talk about doing what others would call "the right thing", even though they are all moral skeptic theories.

Also, don't you think this section is a bit coarsely defined? I'd love to see a breakdown of moral skeptics categorized as revisionists, fictionists, etc. You can always include an "general moral skeptic" option for those people that stop thinking about metaethics once they decide moral skepticism is correct. Similarly, I'd love to see more finely grained options under consequentialism and the other broad categories of this section.

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 01:40:02PM *  3 points [-]

What is your position on the existence of an external reality independent from humans?

a) There is nothing outside me. I'm the only mind and the only entity in the universe.

b) It's not epistemically proper to assume a priori the existence of an external reality. We can hypothesize the existence of external entities as part of a model to explain our sensory experiences. It is not meaningful to discuss about the difference between entities that are part of the model (the "map") and entities that are part of an independent external reality (the "territory").

c) There exist an external reality independent from humans which determines our experiences. It's epistemically proper to assume this a priori rather than consider it an hypothesis. It's meaningful to discuss about the difference between between entities that are part of the model (the "map") and entities that are part of the independent external reality (the "territory").

d) Like c), but in addition to physical objects, the external reality also contains mathematical objects such as the natural numbers, Euclidean/Riemannian geometry, the Turing machine, etc.

Comment author: Alejandro1 22 October 2012 06:22:53AM 2 points [-]

Options b) and c) seem to be conflating two things, realism vs. instrumentalism and a priori vs. a posteriori. I would say that the most reasonable realist position combines elements of your b) and c). We could say that, e.g., electrons are independently existing entities, and that one can distinguish meaningfully between our theory or model of electrons and electrons themselves, while also saying that it is not epistemically proper to assume a priori that electrons exist, but one should only hypothesize their existence if this is part of the best explanation of our sensory experiences. The same happens for all "external reality".

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 02:39:26PM *  2 points [-]

Alice an Bob are playing a variation of a one-shot Prisoner's dilemma. In this version of the game, instead of choosing their actions simultaneously, Alice moves first, and then Bob moves after he knows Alice move. However, Alice know Bob's thought processes well enough that she can predict his move ahead of time. Both Alice and Bob are rational utility maximizers.

There are two possible ways Alice and Bob can reason:

a) Alice predicts that Bob, being an utility maximizer, will always play Defect no matter what she plays. Hence she also playes Defect in order to minimize her loss. Bob sees that Alice played Defect and playes Defect since he can gain nothing by playing Cooperate. This results in the uncoperative outcome (D, D).

b) Alice reasons that the asymmetric outcomes (D, C) and (C, D) are impossible. (D, C) is impossible because, as stated above, once Alice played Defect, Bob has nothing to gain by playing Cooperate. (C, D) is impossible because Alice can predict Bob's move, hence she will never play Cooperate if she predicts that Bob will play Defect. Therefore, only the symmetric outcomes (C, C) and (D, D) remain. Since Alice prefers (C, C) to (D, D), she plays Cooperate. Bob, at this point, is bounded to also play Cooperate, because if he played Defect then Alice's prediction would be falsified, and this in inconsistent with the assumption that Alice can predict Bob's move. Therefore, the cooperative outcome (C, C), also known as acausal trade, results.

Questions:

1) Which analysis is correct?

2) Is this scenario just a theoretical curiosity that can never happen in real life because it is impossible to accurately predict the actions of any agent of any signficant complexity, or is this a scenario that is relevant (or will become relevant) to practical decision making?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 21 October 2012 01:55:16AM *  3 points [-]

Scenario (b) doesn't explain/analyse the situation the way I'd explain/analyse it. If Bob is able to precommit himself to play C if and only if Alice plays C, then Alice's mindreading reads Bob's precommitment, Alice plays C to ensure Bob will also play C (otherwise Alice would lose), then Bob's precommitment is followed through and the (C, C) reality becomes true.

If someone can plausibly precommit themselves, via human concepts like honor or duty or obligation, or via computer concepts like rewriting one's software code -- and if they can signal this convincingly, then mutual cooperation becomes a possibility.

"Is this scenario just a theoretical curiosity that can never happen in real life because it is impossible to accurately predict the actions of any agent of any signficant complexity"

It's scenario that is already a reality to some limited expect, though we use concepts like duty, honor, etc... It doesn't always work, mainly because we can't signal effectively the solidity of our precommitment, nor are we indeed always of such iron will that our precommitments are actually solid enough.

EDIT TO ADD: And isn't this concept pretty much what the whole Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine was built on?

Either way, this question is obviously bad for a survey -- as it has to be answered with a small essay, not with a multiple-choice.

Comment author: Kindly 20 October 2012 08:21:41PM 2 points [-]

Analysis (b) can't possibly be right, because Alice's actions ought to depend on the actions of Bob. No amount of logical perfection can force Bob to play Cooperate, so Alice is effectively reasoning herself into a hole.

Analysis (a) is correct if, in fact, Bob is the sort of person that will always play Defect.

In fact, it's pretty clear what the optimal algorithm for Alice is: she should cooperate iff she predicts that Bob will cooperate in response. (Well, she should also defect if she predicts that Bob will cooperate in response to a defection, but that's stupid.)

Bob is the only one whose actions could be expressed as an acausal trade. He wants Alice to predict that he will cooperate, because otherwise Alice will defect and they both end up with the (D,D) payouts. He can obtain this by being the sort of person who cooperates in response to cooperation; but this comes at the cost of missing out on his (C,D) payout. This is still worthwhile if Bob tends to play lots of one-shot prisoner dilemmas with people that can see the future.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 03:03:44PM 2 points [-]

Did you mean to put this in the survey thread?

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 03:21:58PM *  6 points [-]

IMHO, it might be more interesting to assess the community opinion on topics such as this rather than ask things like how many people you shagged last month.

Comment author: Kindly 21 October 2012 02:37:02AM 2 points [-]

You can always write a discussion post and add a poll in the comments. I think that the survey should be limited to demographics and relatively simple questions.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 10:15:58AM 3 points [-]

Now that I think about it, I would like the survey to ask how many people you shagged last month.

Comment author: V_V 21 October 2012 01:01:54PM 1 point [-]

Why?

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2012 02:01:14PM 1 point [-]

I'm curious both about the numbers (are people here more like Feynman or more like Tesla?) and whether it correlates with answers to other questions.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 20 October 2012 04:27:42PM *  1 point [-]

In this version of the game, instead of choosing their actions simultaneously, Alice moves first, and then Bob moves after he knows Alice move. However, Alice know Bob's thought processes well enough that she can predict his move ahead of time.

This might lead to a contradiction: since Bob's action depends on Alice's action, and Alice is not always capable of predicting her own action, especially while deciding what it should be, it might be impossible for Alice to predict Bob's action, even if the dependence of Bob's action on Alice's action is simple, i.e. if Alice understands Bob's algorithm very well.

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 08:21:29PM 2 points [-]

Ok. Alice can predict Bob's move given Alice's move.

Comment author: novalis 19 October 2012 06:43:11AM *  2 points [-]

I would be inclined to add in a "Anarchist" category for politics. And a surprising number of European parties are "Christian Democrat". They tend to be in favor of some level of wealth redistribution and of labor unions (unlike US conservatives), but socially conservative (unlike US liberals). Not sure if there's a general term for this; I've heard "religious left", but that seems open to alternate interpretations.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 October 2012 08:35:22AM 1 point [-]

I would be inclined to add in a "Anarchist" category for politics.

Should that be split into left-anarchist and right-anarchist/anarcho-capitalism?

And a surprising number of European parties are "Christian Democrat". They tend to be in favor of some level of wealth redistribution and of labor unions (unlike US conservatives), but socially conservative (unlike US liberals).

Aren't those basically their countries right of center parties?

Comment author: novalis 19 October 2012 05:40:56PM 2 points [-]

Aren't those basically their countries right of center parties?

In the Netherlands, the CDA is more center-right (with VVD and PVV being considered on the right). Even when Christan Democrats are considered right-wing, that means supporting a different set of policies than US Republicans or UK Tories. The leader of PVV is openly gay; no openly gay Republican has ever held national office. The cluster "traditional values, low taxes, low redistribution of wealth" just doesn't describe these parties very well.

I'm not super-versed in European politics, so I could be totally wrong here.

Comment author: Eneasz 19 October 2012 03:28:26PM 2 points [-]

Relationship Style needs an option for Monogomish. I'm in a monogamous relationship, but we go to swinger events/clubs and sometimes play with others.

Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 03:08:41PM *  2 points [-]

Extortion can be defined as special kind of trade offer that one party (Alice) would prefer to avoid, but once the offer is made, it is in Alice interest to accept it. For instance, Bob asks Alice to pay him money in order to prevent him from damaging her property. If Alice values her property more than the amount of money Bob demands, then it is in her interest to pay him.

It can be speculated that a decision theory that allows acausal trade could in principle also allow acausal extortion: Alice could predict at time t0 that if she doesn't perform a costly action, at some future time t1 Bob will inflict her a punishment that is more costly than that action, even after discounting. Alice could make this prediction even if Bob hasn't threatened her yet.

What is your opinion on acausal extortion?

a) The acausal trade scenario is theoretically incorrect, thus acausal extortion is also theoretically impossible.

b) Acausal trade is theoretically possible, but not pratically feasible, thus the same holds for acausal extortion.

c) Acausal trade is theoretically possible, but there are logical reasons that make acausal extortion impossible even in theory.

d) Acausal trade is practically feasible. Acausal extortion is theoretically possible, but there are practical reasons that make it unfeasible.

e) Acausal extortion is practically feasible and it is or will become a serious concern.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 October 2012 07:24:54PM 5 points [-]

Acausal extortion is pervasive. It's how most social pressure works. An overview which suggests that the person making the "payment" might have a point

This also suggests that acausal trade is pervasive.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 October 2012 12:52:11PM -1 points [-]

When it comes to politics I don't think asking for labels is much help.

I would rather ask: Which country of the following list do you consider to be ruled best:

1) USA 2) Finland 3) Germany 4) France 5) Japan 6) Singapure 7) China 8) United Kingdom 9) Netherlands

Which do you consider to be ruled worst? If it's possible the survey taker could even order the countries into a list. The difference between US Republicans and US Democrats is very small. The difference between how different countries are governed is much stronger.

A few years ago I could have said that I supported US democrats but now they are for a president that has powers like killing his own citizens without a court trial. On the matter of social security Obama himself said that there isn't much difference between him and Romney. Both don't believe in persecuting high level figures on wall street.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 19 October 2012 04:45:25PM 11 points [-]

I would rather ask: Which country of the following list do you consider to be ruled best:

I have adequate knowledge about how well Finland is ruled, some minor knowledge about how the USA is ruled, and basically no useful knowledge about how well any of those other countries are ruled (besides the fact that none of them is a third world hellhole, so none of them is probably ruled terribly badly). So I couldn't answer this question, and I wouldn't be surprised if nobody on this site was familiar enough with the governance of all those nations to be able to give a meaningful answer.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 08:34:30AM *  3 points [-]

besides the fact that none of them is a third world hellhole, so none of them is probably ruled terribly badly

Or just that ruling an already-developed country isn't terribly demanding. I mean, Belgium didn't become a third-world hellhole despite this.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 08:47:08AM *  9 points [-]

Related to your example: The Art of Governing without Government

Belgium "had no government" for 535 days. Lots of people use the same words to describe the situation in Belgium.

The odd thing about this period of no government was that Belgium’s government was very busy. For example, the non-government nationalized one of the country’s largest banks. Less importantly, your humble blogger had numerous meetings that were attended by representatives of Belgium’s non-government.

How is this possible?

The answer, of course, is that Belgium’s government functions fine – fine enough to bail out a huge bank! – without significant input from elected officials. If elected officials are around to validate the decisions of the permanent government, that’s great. If not, the government gets on just fine.

Call it the art of governing without government.

Moldbuggian models of politics FTW.

Comment author: CronoDAS 21 October 2012 02:26:43AM *  1 point [-]

I want the people to know that they still have two out of three branches of government working for them, and that ain't bad.

-- Jack Nicholson, as President Dale in Mars Attacks

Comment author: Kindly 19 October 2012 05:48:43PM 1 point [-]

I agree, but I think that this exposes our ignorance on the matter; choosing a political label would suffer from the same lack of knowledge, but it wouldn't be as obvious.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 October 2012 10:37:13AM 3 points [-]

I think it takes much more knowledge to confidently meaningfully answer the best-ruled-country question than the political-label question.

Comment author: Decius 19 October 2012 03:13:35PM 7 points [-]

Downvoted for the last paragraph.

Comment author: TraderJoe 23 October 2012 09:45:49AM *  1 point [-]

[comment deleted]

Comment author: ScottMessick 23 October 2012 03:38:20AM *  1 point [-]

The explanation "number of partners" question is problematic right now. It reads "0 for single, 1 for monogamous relationship, >1 for polyamorous relationship" which makes it sound like you must be monogamous if you happen to have 1 partner. I am polyamorous, have one partner and am looking for more.

In fact, I started wondering if it really meant "ideal number of partners", in which case I'd be tempted to put the name of a large cardinal.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 October 2012 09:17:42PM 1 point [-]

Can you clarify what you mean by the "Number of Partner" question? I infer you mean number of current partners, but I'm not entirely sure.

For the "Profession" question, can you include a text-box for "other social science" and "other hard science"?

On the "Degree" question, include a High School/GED option.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 19 October 2012 11:39:33PM *  -1 points [-]

From my libertarian perspective, the primary political issue isn't taxes and spending, but control.

Less taxes are an instance of less control, but not the only one, and it's probably a tenth as important as the harm done by the aggregate of controls. Money is a means to fulfill wants. Taxing away some of my money still allows me to prioritize my wants, and spend my money on my greatest wants. Making something illegal entirely takes away the option, imposing a much greater cost than taking away some percentage of my income.

Even in purely financial terms, controls set in place by the collaboration of rent seekers and central planners probably amount to a hidden tax which almost matches the aggregate level of taxation.

Redistribution involves control as well, and for me, basic principles of property. What if I'm against all the perverse incentives of the usual centrally planned redistributionist welfare state, but actually want more direct redistribution in the form of a guaranteed income? What if someone else is against the crony capitalist redistribution of central planning, but wants more social welfare redistribution?

Also, the socially permissive versus traditional values really doesn't tell me much about a person's politics. Probably some decent correlation, but it doesn't tell me what they wish to empower the government to do.

That's the relevant and specific question for politics.

What do you wish to empower the government to do?

  • Libertarians - Enforce rights against encroachment by others. Enforce property rights.
  • Conservatives - Enforce rights against encroachment by others. Enforce existing property rights. Enforce greater social good.
  • Liberals - Enforce rights against encroachment by others. Enforce property rights. Enforce greater material equality. Enforce greater social good. Enforce greater individual good.
  • Social Democrats - Like liberals, only more so.
  • Communists - Enforce rights against encroachment by others. Enforce greater material equality. Enforce greater social good. Enforce greater individual good.

Everyone wants some basic personal rights to be protected, such as the right to life. The further rights enforced sometimes conflict with the previous, and override them.

Maybe an anarchist can find a way to rejigger this so that they can fit as well, but except for complete pacifists, I find anarchism incoherent, and can't do it myself.

EDIT: Really? Downvoted into oblivion? The OP asks for comments and critique. I critique the framing of the political question based on the inadequacies of the conceptual schema used, identify what I consider the relevant question for politics, and provide a consistent schema to categorize the different answers to that question given by different political outlooks.

Comment author: prase 21 October 2012 03:46:49PM *  1 point [-]

What do you wish to empower the government to do? ... Enforce rights against [X]

To answer this question meaningfully, people had to agree what constitutes a (particular category of) right. Both Libertarians and Communists want to enforce property rights - they would just disagree about their extent.

Also, you put it as if things Conservatives want to enforce is a proper subset of things Liberals want to enforce. This is not true, as "greater social good" would mean a different thing for each group.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 21 October 2012 10:40:25PM *  1 point [-]

Both Libertarians and Communists want to enforce property rights - they would just disagree about their extent.

I should have specified "private property rights".

To answer this question meaningfully, people had to agree what constitutes a (particular category of) right.

Actually, not. As you point out, Conservatives and Liberals have different versions of "social good", but both can recognize the other's version as "social good" according to someone, and that they both have a version they wish to enforce. That distinguishes them from libertarians, and it does so in a way that they can all agree on.

I'm trying to get answers to my question quoted above that someone taking the poll would agree on from their own perspective - that they feel is an accurate characterization of their views. And if possible, have people agree with the characterization of other people's views as well.

For which categories do you think I have failed in those respects, if any?

Comment author: Kawoomba 28 October 2012 08:14:57AM 1 point [-]

As a last question - with people having worked through the other questions, and knowing the extent and details of their own answers - allow them to optionally provide their username.

Comment author: Epiphany 27 October 2012 10:39:30PM *  1 point [-]

The relationship goal question isn't specific enough. Considering that the male to female ratio is so off, we should also be asking how many people have given up on finding someone. "Not looking" doesn't indicate that at all as you can stop looking temporarily due to circumstance and there were so many on the last survey that I have to wonder if those guys have given up. There could be a lot of them.

Not sure how to phrase this, since people would react to this in multiple ways. Some will try to settle and have a relationship with people who are not compatible or they'll accept some kind of alternative arrangement. For instance, special friends, or resorting to poly due to inability to find someone who sufficiently satisfies their needs, resulting in needing multiple lovers to do the job (NOT saying this is the only reason someone might go poly or even a common one, I really have no idea.) Others might feel that even though they don't think it's likely that they'll find someone, they don't give up. Also, there's a difference between people who are not actively looking but would take it if they got a chance and people who are intentionally refraining due to unfavorable circumstances. Maybe this:

Relationship Goals

...and currently looking for more relationship partners.

...and currently refraining from adding relationship partners for reasons I expect to be temporary.

...and currently not active in seeking compatible relationship partners due to the difficulty of finding them.

...and currently not looking due to my existing relationship(s).

...and currently not looking for some other reason.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 October 2012 07:15:23AM 1 point [-]

How about a question about how people treat equations in articles? Is there anything between skip entirely and check carefully?

Comment author: mytyde 25 October 2012 02:26:24AM 1 point [-]

The political definitions are confusing and many would consider some of the distinctions wrong, clearly Americanized. American liberals are to the right of European conservatives, USSR was a socialism just a different kind, etc., etc.....

Find a non-political way of describing political preferences or, better yet, break it up into a political compass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass (test on http://politicalcompass.org/ to chart your location.) 1. Economic 2. Social

Apatheism should also be added to the list of choices for religion.