RobinHanson comments on [LINK] blog on cryonics by someone who freezes things in a cell bio lab - Less Wrong

5 Post author: mwengler 19 October 2012 06:35PM

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Comment author: V_V 20 October 2012 12:40:36PM *  17 points [-]

Don't confuse cryobiology with cryonics. Cryobiologists, the people who actually invent these tissue preservation techniques which are routinely used in hospitals and research labs all over the world, typically think that cryonics is a pseudoscience at best and a fraud at worst: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryobiology#Scientific_societies

Reversible vitrification of individual cells or small samples of tissue is possible because they are small, thus they can be cooled quickly. Cryoprotectants are used to facilitate the process, but not in toxic concentrations.

Fast cooling of objects as large as a human body, or even a human head, is essentially impossible due to the square-cube law: the thermal capacity of an object is proportional to its mass, which, for a given density, is proportional to its volume, while its capacity to transfer heat is proportional to its surface area. As size increases, surface area grows quadratically while volume grows cubically, hence their ratio decreases.

If you attempt to cool a large object too fast, you will freeze or vitrify only a thin superficial layer, and probably even shatter it, since temperature gradients cause gradients of thermal contraction resulting in mechanical stress.

Cryonicists who attempt to preserve whole human cadavers or heads, perfuse them with large amounts of cryoprotectants in order to achieve vitrification. This has several problems:

  • In contrast with mainstream tissue preservation techniques, cryonicists use cryoprotectants in toxic concentrations. At these concentrations, unreversible damage occurs: proteins become denaturated and cell membranes become distorted.
  • Cryoprotectants are perfused post-mortem. It's unclear how deep they are actually able to diffuse. Any area where cryoprotectants don't reach the concentration required for vitrification will be destroyed by ice crystal formation. So far, no cryopreserved human brain has ever been examined to determine the extent of freezing damage.
  • The cryoprotectant perfusion process and the subsequent cooling are very slow. Typically, at least two days pass between the someone's terminal cardiac arrest and the time they reach glass transition temperature, during much of this time their brain has no significant oxygen and glucose supply (ischemia). Human nervous tissue is typically unrecoverably damaged after about one hour of ischemia.
  • For ease of storage, cryonicists cool cadavers past the glass transition temperature, down to liquid nitrogen temperature. Since different types of tissues in the human body thermally contract at different rates, mechanical stress causes multiple widespread macroscopic fractures in all organs including the brain. The extent of microscopic damage at the edges of these fractures is unknown.
Comment author: RobinHanson 12 December 2012 03:04:32PM 2 points [-]

Um, the whole point of the blood system is to overcome the squared area vs cubed volume problem. So you can cool larger things fast if you use blood vessels to move fluid that carries out heat.

Comment author: V_V 27 December 2012 02:42:50PM 1 point [-]

Kinda.

If you circulate a coolant through the circulatory system, the cooling speed is limited by the coolant heat capacity and mass flow rate. For a given maximum pressure difference, the maximum flow that you can achieve depends on the fluid density, viscosity, and the structure of the circulatory system. In the simplified case of laminar flow through a stiff circular straight pipe Hagen–Poiseuille equation applies: mass flow rate is proportional to fluid density and the square of cross-sectional area, and inversely proportional to fluid viscosity and pipe length. The circulatory system is mostly made by long and thin capillaries, with curves and branching that add further resistence compared to a straight pipe.

Blood has approximately the same density of water and five times its viscosity, but it is a non-Newtonian fluid optimized for flowing through thin capillaries. With any water-based coolant, you wouldn't be able to achieve a much higher flow rate than normal circulatory flow rate, but you can use a water-based coolant since water would freeze. Anything more viscous, such as a cryoprotectant mixture, can be circulated at a much lower flow rate. That's why cryoprotectant perfusion as practiced by cryonicists takes many hours. Forcing an higher flow would not only risk rupturing the blood vessels, but also heat them instead of cooling. If you were to use cryoprotectant as a coolant (which, AFAIK, no cryo company does), viscosity would also increase as temperature decreases. And I presume that the maximum allowable pressure in blood vessels decreases with temperature: much like rubber hoses, I expect them to become brittle as they approach glass transition temperature.

Add the fact that a typical cryonics "patient" won't usually have an intact and highly functional circulatory system: hours of ischemia and pre-mortem conditions can usually result in stiff, obstructed, collapsed or outright ruptured blood vessels, making impossible to rely on circulatory function to perform cooling. In fact, it's even unclear whether proper cryoprotectant perfusion could be achieved in most cases.