Kaj_Sotala comments on Causal Reference - Less Wrong

30 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 20 October 2012 10:12PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (242)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 21 October 2012 02:26:41PM 0 points [-]

the point is that if your qualia truly are epiphenomenal, then there is no way you can remember having had them.

I don't see how this follows. Or rather, I don't see how "if qualia are epiphenomenal, there is no way you can remember having had them" is any more or less true than "there is no way you can remember having had qualia, period".

Comment author: drnickbone 21 October 2012 02:33:32PM 5 points [-]

So you reject this schema: "I can remember X only if X is a cause of my memories"? Interesting.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 23 October 2012 09:45:01AM 8 points [-]

After pondering both Eliezer's post and your comments for a while, I concluded that you were right, and that my previous belief in epiphenomenalism was incoherent and confused. I have now renounced it, for which I thank you both.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 21 October 2012 04:49:39PM 7 points [-]

Hmm. I tried to write a response, but then I noticed that I was confused. Let me think about that for a while.

Comment author: Kawoomba 22 October 2012 12:40:10PM 4 points [-]

Lots of memories are constructed and modified post hoc, sometimes confabulating about events that you cannot have witnessed, or that cannot have formed memories from. (Two famous examples: Memory of seeing both twin towers collapse one after the next as it happened (when it fact the latter was shown only after a large gap), memory of being born / being in the womb.)

I'm not positing that you can have causeless memories, but there is a large swath of evidence indicating that the causal experience does not have to match your memory of it.

As a thought experiment, imagine implanted memories. They do have a cause, but certainly their content need not mirror the causal event.

Comment author: Gust 26 December 2012 04:25:12AM 0 points [-]

Well, you really wouldn't be able to remember qualia, but you'd be able to recall brain states that evoke the same qualia as the original events they recorded. In that sense, "to remember" means your brain enters states that are in some way similar to those of the moments of experience (and, in a world where qualia exist, these remembering-brain-states evoke qualia accordingly). So, although I still agree with other arguments agains epiphenomenalism, I don't think this one refutes it.

Comment author: CCC 21 October 2012 07:35:13PM 0 points [-]

I have, on occasion, read really good books. As I read the descriptions of certain scenes, I imagined them occurring. I remember some of those scenes.

The scene, as I remembered it, is not a cause of my memory because the scene as I remember it did not occur. The memory was, rather, caused by a pattern of ink on paper. But I remember the scene, not the pattern of ink.

Comment author: drnickbone 21 October 2012 08:28:31PM 0 points [-]

Well presumably the X here for you Is "my imagining a scene from the book" and that act of imagination was the cause of your memory. So I'm not sure it counts as a counter-example, though if you'd somehow forgotten it was a fictional scene, and became convinced it really happened, then it could be argued as a counter-example.

I said "Interesting" in response to Kaj, because I'd also started to think of scenarios based on mis-remembering or false memory syndrome, or even dream memories. I'm not sure these examples of false memory help the epiphenomenalist much...