gwern comments on Causal Reference - Less Wrong

30 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 20 October 2012 10:12PM

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Comment author: gwern 28 October 2012 11:12:00PM 2 points [-]

I take Carl to meaning that: the program corresponding to 'universe A simulating universe B and I am in universe B' is strictly more complex than 'I am in universe B' while also predicting all the same observations, and so the 'universe A simulating universe B' part of the program makes no difference in the same way that mental epiphenomena make no difference - they predict you will make the same observations, while being strictly more complex.

Comment author: CarlShulman 29 October 2012 09:18:44PM 0 points [-]

This seems to be talking about something entirely different.

Comment author: SilasBarta 28 October 2012 11:59:15PM 0 points [-]

the program corresponding to 'universe A simulating universe B and I am in universe B' is strictly more complex than 'I am in universe B' while also predicting all the same observations, and so the 'universe A simulating universe B' part of the program makes no difference in the same way that mental epiphenomena make no difference - they predict you will make the same observations, while being strictly more complex.

True, but, just as a reminder, that's not the position we're in. There are other (plausibly necessary) parts of our world model that could give us the implication "universe A simulates us" "for free", just as we get "the electron that goes beyond our cosmological horizon keeps existing" is an implication we get "for free" as a result of minimal models of physics.

In this case (per the standard Simulation Argument), the need to resolve the question of "what happens in civilizations that can construct virtual worlds indistinguishable from non-virtual worlds" can force us to posit parts of a (minimal) model that then imply the existence of universe A.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 28 October 2012 11:32:38PM 0 points [-]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. Thanks!