asciilifeform comments on On the Fence? Major in CS - Less Wrong

18 Post author: talisman 07 May 2009 04:26AM

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Comment author: asciilifeform 07 May 2009 03:49:54PM * 3 points [-]

I strongly disagree.

Statistically speaking, salt mines await most CS majors.

I regret my CS degree every day of the week.

Unless your grades are exceptional (or you have the business acumen and extroversion to deal with startups) a CS education dooms you to the career of a human robot.

I will also note that it is possible to be passionately in love with your field without also being passionately in love with homework or exams. For people like this, some of whom want to pursue a life dedicated to chasing knowledge possibly more than most of the academically excellent, universities offer only a savage self-esteem beating.

Comment author: thomblake comment score below threshold [+] (12 children)

Comment author: asciilifeform 07 May 2009 04:11:33PM * 2 points [-]

A university education exists to begin the path towards wisdom

In practice, it is a credentials mill and "meatgrinder" filter.

Think realistically. If you want to spend your life's prime waking hours creating knowledge instead of languishing in an unrelated day job, academia (or something which demands similar credentials for admission) is the only ticket I know of.

So whatever else the university has to offer, it will be served with a generous helping of defeat, depression, and permanent career damage, if you aren't "grind" material (or intelligent enough to ace classes without grinding.)

Comment author: thomblake 07 May 2009 04:57:11PM 0 points [-]

If you want to spend your life's prime waking hours creating knowledge instead of languishing in an unrelated day job, academia (or something which demands similar credentials for admission) is the only ticket I know of.

This seems to contradict your sentiments. If academia is the ticket to the not-grind, then why is it also the source of the 'grind'?

In my experience, one can do passably well in university while giving little thought to trivialities like what your grades are. Of course, it depends upon the college program, and what you expect to get out of it. Some universities these days seem to be of the opinion that they're technical schools, out to train people for particular careers.

Comment author: asciilifeform 07 May 2009 06:02:46PM * 5 points [-]

The contradiction you are seeing isn't in my post; rather, it is in the way academia (at least in the US) is actually structured. Ostensibly, graduate programs want to recruit candidates who will do creative, original research. Yet, the qualifications they demand (grades) have little to do with creativity and everything to do with being the best human emulation of a computer that you can be.

What undergraduate schooling mostly tests: excellence in rote memorization, speed of solving trivial problems, performance on demand and to spec every day, the willingness to carry out a meaningless task on somebody's say-so - these abilities are mostly orthogonal to aptitude for original research. And yet they are the primary entry criteria.

And doing "passably well" typically won't get you into a Ph.D. program.

Comment author: thomblake 07 May 2009 06:52:24PM 2 points [-]

What undergraduate schooling mostly tests: excellence in rote memorization, speed of solving trivial problems, performance on demand and to spec every day, the willingness to carry out a meaningless task on somebody's say-so

This is not my experience. It sounds to me more like you're describing elementary school. Of course, it could be that you went to an exceptionally bad school, or that I went to an exceptionally good one.

And doing "passably well" typically won't get you into a Ph.D. program.

No, but making the right kind of professional connections and being brilliant will get you into a PhD program, regardless of your grades. Though there are some schools that have a grade cut-off before the department is even allowed to consider a student; I think that sort of thing is criminal. If you find yourself in that unfortunate situation, consider entreating your professors to inflate your grades, or better yet, choose a different graduate school.

Comment author: asciilifeform 07 May 2009 07:04:25PM 1 point [-]

you're describing elementary school

I'm describing a large public US university which I attended, one considered fairly respectable in the sciences. And I have seen scarcely any reports of experience different from my own in this respect. The people with nothing to complain about tend to be the ones with sufficient rote learning / calculation talent to avoid having been burned in the way I describe.

consider entreating your professors to inflate your grades

Are you joking?

choose a different graduate school.

Almost every graduate program in the country has the GPA cutoff.

Comment author: thomblake 07 May 2009 09:32:51PM 0 points [-]

Almost every graduate program in the country has the GPA cutoff.

I'm not familiar with this. Do you have a citation / source / study to confirm this?

I'm describing a large public US university which I attended, one considered fairly respectable in the sciences. And I have seen scarcely any reports of experience different from my own in this respect.

Well my experience can be counted as one of the 'scarce' ones then, and I hadn't until now heard any reports quite like yours. I suppose I should mention then that I went to Southern Connecticut State University, for anyone interested in avoiding the sorts of things asciilifeform refers to, in case my university really was that unique. We do have some world-renowned departments, so I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised.

Comment author: asciilifeform 08 May 2009 12:12:29AM * 0 points [-]

Do you have a citation / source

Only my own experience in trying to find places to apply to.

I hadn't until now heard any reports quite like yours

I suspect we might simply have different views on what constitutes meaningless gruntwork (as opposed to preparation for original research.) To me, this would be pretty much anything which asks for on-demand, closed-book performance, adherence to schedules, any activity involving memorization, and in essence anything short of unbridled freedom to pursue the topics which interest me at my own pace.

Comment author: thomblake 08 May 2009 02:06:45PM 0 points [-]

Indeed it seems we are just talking past each other. "unbridled freedom to pursue the topics which interest me at my own pace" is what you have outside of school. The university is there to expose you to different ways of learning and thinking about things, different sorts of tasks, different personalities and styles of work, and subjects that might not interest you at the moment.

A lot of the things you complain about are components of a happy and productive life.

I often claim that people go to college too young. One should develop the discipline and drive to appreciate a university education before undertaking it - otherwise, one will miss the point and it will just feel like more high school.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Lojban 07 May 2009 07:43:53PM -2 points [-]

Read your Reddit post. Wow, sad. I did computer engineering undergrad, and actually didn't get into CS grad school (pre-reqs I think). I ended up doing computer engineering masters. There's a lot of stigma with CS--I'm actually happy I never got stuck with the label.

asciilifeform comments on On the Fence? Major in CS - Less Wrong

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