Decius comments on Logical Pinpointing - Less Wrong

62 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 November 2012 03:33PM

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Comment author: Decius 03 November 2012 08:25:07PM 0 points [-]

You can't talk about what the natural numbers are and are not without some form of set theory.

"0 is the only number which is not the successor of any number" requires set theory to be meaningful.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 November 2012 01:53:33AM 0 points [-]

You can't talk about what the natural numbers are and are not without some form of set theory.

But you can talk about some of the properties they have, and quite often that is all we care about.

Also, the stronger your system is, the more likely it is that your formulation is inconsistent (and if the system is inconsistent, you're definitely not describing anything meaningful). I'm much more confident that first-order Peano arithmetic is consistent than I am that first-order ZFC set theory is consistent.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 November 2012 11:07:08PM 0 points [-]

No. You can rephrase that as: "Every natural number is either 0 or the successor of some number".

Comment author: Decius 04 November 2012 12:54:32AM 1 point [-]

What does "Every x" mean in the absence of set theory?

Comment author: [deleted] 04 November 2012 01:43:46AM *  1 point [-]

Enjoy A Problem Course in Mathematical Logic. Read Definition 6.4, Definition 6.5, and Definition 6.6 (Edit: They are on PDF pages 47-50, book pages 35-38.). It means that, within each model of the axioms, it is the case that every object in the model has the specified property. The natural numbers happen to be a model of first-order Peano arithmetic.

Let me ask you what "every x" means in first-order ZFC set theory. Answer carefully - it has a countable model.