Epictetus comments on Logical Pinpointing - Less Wrong

62 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 November 2012 03:33PM

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Comment author: Houshalter 05 May 2015 10:29:06AM *  0 points [-]

repeating S n times isn't something we know how to do in first-order logic

Why not? Repeating S n times is just addition, and addition is defined in the peano first order logic axioms. I just took these from my textbook:

∀y.plus(0,y,y)

∀x.∀y.∀z.(plus(x,y,z) ⇒ plus(s(x),y,s(z)))

∀x.∀y.∀z.∀w.(plus(x,y,z) ∧ ¬same(z,w) ⇒ ¬plus(x,y,w))

I've also seen addition defined recursively somehow, so each step it subtracted 1 from the second number and added 1 to the first number, until the second number was equal to zero. Something like this:

∀x.∀y.∀z.∀w.(plus(x,y,z) ⇒ plus(s(x),w,z) ∧ same(s(w),y))

From this you could define subtraction in a similar way, and then state that all numbers subtracted from themselves, must equal 0. This would rule out nonstandard numbers.

Comment author: Epictetus 05 May 2015 11:40:14AM 1 point [-]

I refer you to the Lowenheim-Skolem Theorem:

Every (countable) first-order theory that has an infinite model, has a model of size k for every infinite cardinal k. You cannot use first-order logic to exclude non-standard numbers unless you want to abandon infinite models altogether.