pragmatist comments on Open Thread, November 1-15, 2012 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: OpenThreadGuy 02 November 2012 02:11AM

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Comment author: gwern 10 November 2012 05:54:42PM 17 points [-]

Here's what I was trying to say: If you genuinely recognized and cared about the negative impact beliefs like yours have had on the lives of trans people, then even if you could not control the fact that you have those beliefs you would refrain from airing them in any public forum, no matter how ephemeral, where there is a non-negligible chance they will be read by trans people or by cis people who know and love trans people. The utility boost you get from posting those comments, if any, is dwarfed by the expected harm. You not only expressed those beliefs, but when startling clearly indicated he found them offensive, you proceeded to double down on them.

startling was not clear to me, but I have a more important problem with your comments and point of view:

I think you are quite wrong in your claims about utility and it is arrogant of you to presume to know what value I do or do not get out of IRC.

I am hard of hearing; no other medium lets me express myself as fluently or freely or easily or (let's call a spade a spade) thoughtlessly as IRC. That is why I spend so much time there, because LW, email, forums, personal spoken interactions, telephones - all suck for me. My verbal jokes are unappreciated spoken; I am always a step behind in conversation, assuming I didn't mishear someone; abstract discussions and subtle points go poorly; etc. And that's if I even can find anyone to discuss these topics with, as I am nowhere near a LW meetup or a good university and live in the rural sticks.

On IRC, my fast reading skill means I am never a second behind everyone else and can talk faster and more clearly than anyone else; the people self-select for interesting conversation; quotes and references can be added; puns and written jokes go through without issue; and every problem mentioned above goes away. I've been on IRC ever since I learned of it as a kid, and as my previous statistics indicate, I talk a lot on IRC.

Nor am I the only IRCer who is hard of hearing - at least 2 other regulars in #lesswrong are hard of hearing too, and I believe those advantages are part of why they keep showing up too.

Putting a filter on myself destroys part of the value of IRC for me, in much the same way that people are complaining that LessWrong is over-moderated: filters and moderation always reduce ease & quantity, and increase fear & latency.

I cannot surgically excise the part of me that has issues with transexuals; I also cannot watch myself like a hawk 24/7 to catch that 0.001% or whatever of my comments that would offend anyone without destroying part of IRC's value for me.

So when you get on your moral high horse and talk about what I should do if I 'genuinely' repent and this and that, all I can think is: you really don't know what you're so cavalierly asking of me. You're asking me to damage the medium of most value in keeping me sane and reducing my social isolation, what keeps me going each day as I deal with the consequences of my handicaps and problems.

Comment author: pragmatist 10 November 2012 06:10:09PM *  12 points [-]

You're right, I didn't give sufficient consideration to the benefits you might get from IRC, and I'm sorry about that. I still think what you said about trans people (especially referring to them as "monstrous abortions", even jocularly) is really bad, but if attempting to police that kind of language for yourself would seriously damage the value of IRC as a coping mechanism for you, then it is a more difficult situation than I imagined. Perhaps you could ask a trusted friend who's also a regular on the channel to give you a heads up by PM if what you say gets a little too offensive? I don't know... I do think you're underestimating the extent to which comments of the sort you made are harmful. There are very few communities on the internet (or in real life, for that matter) that are even remotely welcoming to trans people, and I'd like LW to be one of them. But I've said my piece and I'm not going to push it. Sorry for getting too fighty. I should have appreciated that you feel a little blindsided and that piling on doesn't help.

Comment author: gwern 10 November 2012 06:16:46PM 8 points [-]

You're right, I didn't give sufficient consideration to the benefits you might get from IRC, and I'm sorry about that...I should have appreciated that you feel a little blindsided and the piling on doesn't help.

It's OK. There's no reason you should've known I was hard of hearing or appreciate how much I get out of IRC, before I bared my heart.

Perhaps you could ask a trusted friend who's also a regular on the channel to give you a heads up by PM if what you say gets a little too offensive?

That's a good suggestion, but I can't think of any. startling and Algo are the only 2 to express offense in the quoted conversations but I neither trust nor distrust them as guides.

Comment author: AlexanderD 25 November 2012 02:14:26AM -1 points [-]

This careful reconsideration of the subject, subsequent apology, and declaration of an intent to change your behavior are admirable - and a bit ironic, in this situation.