Multiheaded comments on Why is Mencius Moldbug so popular on Less Wrong? [Answer: He's not.] - Less Wrong

9 Post author: arborealhominid 16 November 2012 06:37PM

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Comment author: James_Ernest 22 November 2012 11:16:15PM 3 points [-]

There is an interesting diversion to be made along these lines. Nick Land, who has written up a series (The Dark Enlightenment) about Moldbug and the neo-reaction in general, has just written this, in which he posits the politically-assisted decoupling from reality as a progressive eschatology:

"The unforgivable crime is to accept that there are consequences, or results, other than those we have agreed to allow."

This meme, a seriously morbid distortion of epistemology, is common to many adaptive belief systems, but I would propose that it is more crucial to progressivism than any other.

Comment author: Multiheaded 23 November 2012 04:37:23AM *  0 points [-]

Land is a little horrifying in his Nietzchean/Stirnerian lack of barriers, to be honest.

About accepting/not shrinking from shocking facts about reality: I see two basic types of failure modes here - firstly, denying the presense of any given horror (like e.g. innate group neurological differences - race, gender, etc - creating inherent power and knowledge differences in a society and making brutal unyielding inter-group hierarchy such a society's "natural", least costly to maintain and most economically productive state) is indeed more common to people with liberal/Universalist leanings... -

...- but there's a second failure mode in normalizing and rationalizing such facts despite them registering as "evil" on one's moral intuition meter, and I think that one is much more common to reactionaries/anti-Universalists, including Land himself. Where a liberal could be happily deluded about the difficulty of fixing "natural" evils with artificial policies, a reactionary could calm his (let's be honest, they're almost exclusively male) conscience with redefining "evil" and accepting life as it is. I see no more reason to accept that complacency than I see to accept deathism.

What say you?

EDIT: I've read the article - well, yeah, Land is guilty of siding with reality. I wonder what he thinks about transhumanism.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 November 2012 06:26:06PM 3 points [-]

When you refuse to treat humans as rational agents, it's easy to forget the most important aspect of human behavior: that it responds to incentives (even perverse ones). How hard-working or intelligent a human is depends on whether society rewards hard work and intelligence. If the products of someone's hard work are redistributed to those who are lazy on that grounds that being lazy is not the person's fault, there will suddenly be a lot fewer hard workers and a lot more lazy people.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 28 May 2013 11:55:01AM 1 point [-]

Except that there is no such sudden change, and the numbers of unemployed people increase and decrease with the health of the economy, indicating that people are willing to take jobs when they are available, and that status is important as well as income, and that people can acquire money through luck and inheritance as well as hard work...

I could go on.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 29 May 2013 04:17:25AM 1 point [-]

and the numbers of unemployed people increase and decrease with the health of the economy,

That's because most measures of the "health of the economy" give a very strong weight to the number of unemployed people.

and that status is important as well as income,

And status is affected by a lot of things beside how hard one works.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 29 May 2013 09:50:37AM 0 points [-]

That's because most measures of the "health of the economy" give a very strong weight to the number of unemployed people

No. The point remains true if you use a measure that doesn't.

And status is affected by a lot of things beside how hard one works.

Indeed. The non-worker Paris Hilton is much higher status than the average unemployed person,, which would motivate the average unemployed person to take up jobs where they are available.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 June 2013 03:09:36AM 1 point [-]

Indeed. The non-worker Paris Hilton is much higher status than the average unemployed person,, which would motivate the average unemployed person to take up jobs where they are available.

Why? If your point is that they'll be motivated to work so that they can earn enough money to be as rich as Paris Hilton, then my point is precisely that redistributing wealth from those who work to those who don't makes this motivation less effective. If your point is something else, could you spell it out in more detail.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 01 June 2013 02:50:57PM 1 point [-]

Why? If your point is that they'll be motivated to work so that they can earn enough money to be as rich as Paris Hilton, then my point is precisely that redistributing wealth from those who work to those who don't makes this motivation less effective

In a society with no welfare system, someone with no job or inherited wealth will have an income of zero and be a the bottom of the status ranking. In a society with a typical welfare system, someone with no job or inherited wealth will have a minimal income, and still be a the bottom of the status ranking. The people at the top will also have a little less in absolute terms, and still be top rank. So: no. Your point might apply to some extreme form of redistribution, that aims to give everyone the same income, but that has never been put into practice.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 04 June 2013 01:47:54AM 2 points [-]

My point is that the shallower the slope of the pre vs. post-redistribution graph the more other factors besides money will motivate people. A big part of the problem is that (at least in the US) the slope is particularly narrow at right around the point where taking a low paying job would cause someone to loose their welfare benefits.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 06 June 2013 04:42:05PM 1 point [-]

Cutting welfare to below subsistence level is not the only or best solution. You can also raise minimum wages, or supplement incomes