JoshuaZ comments on How minimal is our intelligence? - Less Wrong

55 Post author: Douglas_Reay 25 November 2012 11:34PM

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Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2012 06:51:07PM 2 points [-]

I don't know precisely why your comment was voted down, but one obvious guess is factual issues:

Amateurs: Evolutionary Theory (Darwin, 1830s-50s)

Darwin got most of his ideas from his time working the survey/exploration ship the HMS Beagle. As you may gather from the "HMS" in front, this was a ship in the British navy which had specific funding to hire and provide support to a naturalist.

But note that although I'm happy to fight you on your strongest ground (pure scientific research), surely you must then concede that the rest of the battlefield is mine, and that all government spending on academia that can't be justified in these terms (e.g. arts, humanities, medicine, space exploration, etc) should be eliminated. I'm not doctrinaire - I'd settle for that compromise.

This is why I suspect you are getting downvoted. First, it shows a confused notion of what is "pure scientific research"- a large part of space exploration and medical research counts as pure research for purposes of the arguments being made by IlyaShpitser and others in this context. Moreover, you seem to be wanting a "compromise" as if the truth must be somehow negotiable. The key of discussion is to understand what is likely to be actually true. Settling for a compromise isn't how one reaches truth (and no, Aumann's agreement theorem doesn't apply here).

Comment author: Salemicus 26 November 2012 07:23:27PM *  3 points [-]

I will not argue with your post as although I disagree with some things you stated, I requested comments on why downvoted. However, I think the following correction is necessary:

I don't know precisely why your comment was voted down, but one obvious guess is factual issues:

Amateurs: Evolutionary Theory (Darwin, 1830s-50s)

Darwin got most of his ideas from his time working the survey/exploration ship the HMS Beagle. As you may gather from the "HMS" in front, this was a ship in the British navy which had specific funding to hire and provide support to a naturalist.

Darwin was a "gentleman naturalist," held no official post on the Beagle, received no salary, and in fact had to pay to go on the journey. The ship was going for surveying purposes, and would have gone on its journey regardless of his presence. He held no academic position in the years afterwards when he was working on his theory. I think it's quite reasonable to classify this as amateur.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2012 07:29:47PM *  3 points [-]

So from reading this Wikipedia summary it looks like the situation was actually more complicated than either of us realized (although definitely closer to your summary):

FitzRoy had found a need for expert advice on geology during the first voyage, and had resolved that if on a similar expedition, he would "endeavour to carry out a person qualified to examine the land; while the officers, and myself, would attend to hydrography... he asked his friend and superior, Captain Francis Beaufort, to seek a gentleman naturalist as a self-financing passenger who would give him company during the voyage. A sequence of inquiries led to Charles Darwin, a young gentleman on his way to becoming a rural clergyman, joining the voyage

So yes, he was self-financed. But the primary issue is that he was given support by the crew and the entire existence of an exploration ship (which if anything seems pretty similar to the space program you've criticized). Would you call someone who does work without pay now using data from NASA an amateur? If so, then the term "amateur" isn't very relevant to capturing the most important detail- where the resources for their work comes from.

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