Jiro comments on A Parable On Obsolete Ideologies - Less Wrong

113 Post author: Yvain 13 May 2009 10:51PM

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Comment author: MugaSofer 15 January 2015 07:45:41PM *  0 points [-]

There's also the problem of people taking things meant to be metaphorical as literal, simply because, well, it's right there, right?

For example (just ran into this today):

Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. Matthew 21:18-22 NIV

This is pretty clearly an illustration. "Like this tree, you'd better actually give results, not just give the appearance of being moral". (In fact, I believe Jesus uses this exact illustration in a sermon later.)

And yet, I saw this on a list of "God's Temper Tantrums that Christians Never Mention", presumably interpreted as "Jesus zapped a tree because it annoyed him."

Except that I think another reasonable interpretation is: whoever edited the text into a form that contains both stories did notice that they are inconsistent, didn't imagine that somehow they are both simultaneously correct, but did intend them to be taken at face value -- the implicit thinking being something like "obviously at least one of these is wrong somewhere, but both of them are here in our tradition; probably one is right and the other wrong; I'll preserve them both, so that at least the truth is in here somewhere".

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that.

Comment author: Jiro 15 January 2015 08:27:14PM *  2 points [-]

And yet, I saw this on a list of "God's Temper Tantrums that Christians Never Mention", presumably interpreted as "Jesus zapped a tree because it annoyed him."

When a metaphor uses words describing situation A in order to make a comparison to situation B, that still requires belief in A. If the Bible said "following God is like eating ice cream", that's a statement about following God being good, but it also carries the assumption that eating ice cream is good--if you don't think eating ice cream is good, using it as a metaphor for something else being good would fail.

In order to use "Jesus zaps a tree" as a metaphor for "Jesus hates putting on appearances", you still need to believe that it's okay to zap a tree. If zapping a tree is not okay, then the metaphor makes no sense. So it is, in fact, legitimate to criticize this on the basis that zapping a tree is a temper tantrum.

Furthermore, part of atheists' objection is to the story's metaphorical meaning. The full story is that Jesus zapped a tree for not providing figs even though it was not the season for figs. The metaphor, then, becomes "Jesus hates it when people aren't really moral even when it's impossible for them to follow Jesus' standards of morality". And a lot of people have good reason to object to that.

Comment author: g_pepper 15 January 2015 10:30:05PM 1 point [-]

In order to use "Jesus zaps a tree" as a metaphor for "Jesus hates putting on appearances", you still need to believe that it's okay to zap a tree. If zapping a tree is not okay, then the metaphor makes no sense.

People frequently use phrases describing morally objectionable actions as metaphors for morally acceptable (and prudential) actions. For example, "eviscerate" is sometimes used as a metaphor for achieving a decisive victory in a debate or a sporting event. While actually eviscerating one's debate opponent would be morally objectionable, winning a debate is not morally objectionable. There are many other examples of this sort of thing, particularly in sports journalism.

Comment author: Jiro 15 January 2015 11:20:44PM 0 points [-]

We generally do that when there is an unobjectionable version of the action and it can be exaggerated into the objectionable one. It would be wrong to eviscerate an opponent in an actual violent fight, but it would be okay to hurt an opponent in one.

Jesus zapping the tree is not just objectionable because it is too extreme; Jesus shouting at the tree or even politely condemning it wouldn't be acceptable.

Comment author: g_pepper 15 January 2015 11:32:54PM 3 points [-]

Jesus shouting at the tree or even politely condemning it wouldn't be acceptable

Politely condemning a tree is not acceptable? You have a pretty strict ethic! :)

Comment author: Jiro 16 January 2015 03:35:57PM 0 points [-]

It's unacceptable in the sense that he has no reason to condemn it and that doing so with serious intent is a sign of a personality flaw, even if such behavior wouldn't be enough to get him thrown out of a restaurant.