Esar comments on LW Women- Minimizing the Inferential Distance - Less Wrong

58 [deleted] 25 November 2012 11:33PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 25 November 2012 06:52:39AM *  27 points [-]

When epistemic rationality is counter to instrumental rationality

Epistemic rationality is about knowing the truth. Instrumental rationality is about meeting your goals.

The general case is that the more truth you know, the better you are at meeting your goals (and so instrumental and epistemic rationality are heavily tied to each other), however there exist rare occurrences where this is not the case.

More importantly, there are many times when SPEAKING the truth is counter to your goals.

For an absurd example: Say you are in a room full of angry convicts with knives. It probably is counter to your goal of staying alive and healthy to start proclaiming TRUE but insulting statements.

More realistically, raising children is one example where, if your goal is to raise happy, sane, well-adjusted adults, there are many statements that should NOT be spoken, no matter how true they are.

Examples:

  • No, that's a horrid drawing. I can't tell at all what it is. I could do better in 5 seconds. I will probably throw it away as soon as you forget about it.
  • Your mom and I just had sex on the living room couch. What's sex? Well...
  • Let's learn about the history of torture! Or how about I tell you about factory farming and where your hamburger came from. Or poverty! (if said to a preschooler)

Even if it the cooking and cleaning statement were epistemically true, it is not instrumentally rational to tell this to your child if your goal is to have her grow into an independent adult who can support herself, and does not feel bound by the "traditional" gender roles (which are falling out of favor anyway).

Likewise, if you value having a higher percentage of women on this site, it is not instrumentally rational to make statements such as "You only got upvoted because you're a girl", or "<X> girls aren't as attractive as <Y> girls," EVEN IF you believe that said statements are true.

I highly value truth. But a prime reason I value it is because it allows me to meet my goals. When speaking the truth is harmful to my goals, it is wise to hold my tongue.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 November 2012 05:53:25PM 3 points [-]

No, that's a horrid drawing. I can't tell at all what it is. I could do better in 5 seconds. I will probably throw it away as soon as you forget about it.

Man, except for the 'I could do better' part (I can't), I tell my kid this all the time.

Comment author: Emile 26 November 2012 09:08:17PM *  2 points [-]

That's harsh! Do you have a particular reason to do that?

(I'm genuinely curious; my personal inclination wouldn't be to do that, though of course it is true of my kid's current drawings, he's two years old)

Comment author: Strange7 27 November 2012 02:18:09AM 4 points [-]

Praise means more when it has to be earned.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 November 2012 04:21:14AM 2 points [-]

Especially for little kids, you don't want to make praise too hard to get.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 27 November 2012 04:32:51AM 4 points [-]

Exactly. "What is it? <pause to listen> I think I see it! I bet you can do even better next time!" is far less discouraging than "that's horrible, I can't even tell what it is!"

Assuming that your goal is to construct a well-functioning mind, that is. (Which I hope is the goal of everyone who decides to make a child)

Comment author: Strange7 27 November 2012 10:32:24PM 2 points [-]

It's a tricky balance. I don't agree with Esar's strategy, but I can see the logic behind it and was trying to share that understanding with Emile.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 November 2012 01:52:09AM 2 points [-]

Well, the kid I'm talking about is 8, so he can handle criticism better than a preschooler. To my credit, he is an awesome artist.