Bugmaster comments on LW Women- Minimizing the Inferential Distance - Less Wrong

58 [deleted] 25 November 2012 11:33PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 30 November 2012 03:54:46PM 7 points [-]

Er... what if it still doesn't seem disturbing after rumination?

Yes. There are certain very common tropes whose gender-reversed version offends me (thereby making me realize that the original version is fucked up too), but almost all characters in a work of fiction being the same gender isn't one of those.

Examples: 1) When a woman posts some mysandrist generalization about “all men” on her Facebook wall, I am deeply offended¹ -- so I can guess how women feel when a man posts some mysogynist generalization about “all women”, which happens more often IME. 2) The latest episode of How I Met Your Mother, in which na nggenpgvir znyr ynjlre gevrf gb jva n ynjfhvg ol syvegvat jvgu gur whebef, jub ner nyy srznyr, kind-of bothered me (though I'm not sure I endorse that feeling) because it reminded me of the gender-reversed version, which is a very common trope and offends me. But sometimes is the asymmetry itself that bothers me: when a woman posts pictures of sexy men in underwear on their Facebook wall, I'm not directly offended by that (I occasionally do the gender-reversed version of that myself), but I am bothered by the fact that no-one seems to flinch whereas when a man posts pictures of sexy women in underwear on their Facebook wall (which happens much more often IME) plenty of people boo that.²


  1. The one time I actually complained about that, though, the person who had written that status told me that I was obviously not the kind of guy she was talking about so I shouldn't be offended. Since that time, I just entirely ignore any mysandristic or mysogynistic generalization I read.
  2. When I post a picture of a sexy woman in underwear on my Facebook wall and a woman complains about that, I dig their Facebook wall until I find a picture of a sexy man in underwear and jokingly complain about that. She usually gives me an obviously jocular excuse for why she posted it.
Comment author: Bugmaster 30 November 2012 07:44:57PM 5 points [-]

2) The latest episode of How I Met Your Mother, in which na nggenpgvir znyr ynjlre gevrf gb jva n ynjfhvg ol syvegvat jvgu gur whebef, jub ner nyy srznyr...

To be fair, this scenario probably should bother you, because it amounts to hacking a critically important social system through the use of the Dark Arts. The gender of the participants is, IMO, less important than the realization of how easily our social infrastructure can be exploited.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 December 2012 11:05:21AM 0 points [-]

It does bother me in Real Life, what I'm not sure of is whether it should bother me in fiction.

Comment author: Bugmaster 02 December 2012 05:46:12PM 1 point [-]

I don't actually watch How I Met Your Mother, but I've been assuming that the fictional situation you described was plausible enough to have a good chance of occurring in real life -- though it's possible I was wrong.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 December 2012 11:35:39AM *  1 point [-]

I've been assuming that the fictional situation you described was plausible enough to have a good chance of occurring in real life

People getting their way to the unfair detriment of others through arse-licking does happen a lot where I am, and not always in sexualized ways. (And it's not the “sexualized ways” part that bothers me,¹ it's the “unfair detriment of others” part.)


  1. Ten hours before writing the grandparent, I was getting free beer and free cake after dancing with a group of women (none of whom I had ever met until a few hours prior) and letting them take my shirt off. And I can see no good reason to feel bad about that, at least in the situation I was in.
Comment author: Eugine_Nier 16 December 2012 10:54:29PM 1 point [-]

Ten hours before writing the grandparent, I was getting free beer and free cake after dancing with a group of women (none of whom I had ever met until a few hours prior) and letting them take my shirt off. And I can see no good reason to feel bad about that, at least in the situation I was in.

Picture that situation gender-swapped.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 December 2012 11:24:28PM *  2 points [-]

Hmm... Yeah; my intuition says the people involved would be frowned upon a lot more in that case. But then again, before the first time I did something like that, my intuition had said I would be frowned upon a lot more than actually happened; so I don't trust it so much anymore, IOW I'm not sure I should have updated my intuition about the male stripper case but not also that about the female stripper case in the same direction. (When someone does something that makes me update my model of humans, it usually doesn't occur to me to only update my model of their gender and not that of the other gender -- but in situations like this one there are potential confounders aplenty.)

Comment author: fubarobfusco 16 December 2012 11:12:56PM -1 points [-]

... in a world where men get pregnant?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 18 December 2012 03:20:52AM 3 points [-]

Really, I'm impressed it took this long for someone to point out one of the fundamental problems of the gender-swap test.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 18 December 2012 03:40:45AM *  1 point [-]

Yep — human reproduction is not an equal deal for the participants. In the most basic sense possible, it is not fair. Nobody promised humanity that our alien-god-given bodies would perfectly implement the rules of morality that we might later derive — such as reciprocity; or for that matter not using another person merely as a means to your ends.

This bug has been acknowledged many times before, and various technical and social workarounds have been proposed and deployed. The underlying bug still needs work, though it may not be fully fixed before humans are ported to a new platform.