Multiheaded comments on LW Women Entries- Creepiness - Less Wrong

7 [deleted] 28 April 2013 03:43PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (472)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Multiheaded 29 April 2013 12:33:51PM *  16 points [-]

Who is in the clown suit, then?

Serious Marxian and feminist theory, in any sphere. Not that someone's been seriously trying to post about those on LW and met with hostility, oh no - LW in general just can't bridge the inferential distance to those schools of thought, so what we're getting here is a strawman in a clown suit. We aren't so much failing to extract value from those traditions, we aren't even trying - because it's much easier and more fun to mock it all as self-absorbed non-truth-tracking ivory-tower nonsense.

I've been reading lots of good stuff on both fronts lately, and attempting to mark what's appropriate and good for LW (analysis of systemic behavior, self-perpetuating structures of power, etc), so that I can at least provide some good links eventually. Translating any serious insights into LW-speak by myself is a bit of a daunting task; again, a lot of Marxist/feminist context as seriously studied by those schools of thought is nothing like the strawman version that many people have likely absorbed through pop culture.

But at least I can say that, while the inferential gap between the transhumanist/geek discourse of LW and the discourse of left-wing academia that tech geeks love to deride is great, there is a lot to be gained on the other side. We are ignoring some vast intellectual currents here.

Comment author: mstevens 29 April 2013 01:21:15PM 9 points [-]

I look forward to your further posts.

my limited research on these topics has been very negative.

Comment author: maia 29 April 2013 01:16:23PM 7 points [-]

I'm skeptical, but I haven't investigated either of those things at all, so I would try to read something about them if you posted it. Has knowing things about those theories been useful to you?

Comment author: wedrifid 29 April 2013 01:25:45PM 8 points [-]

We aren't so much failing to extract value from those traditions, we aren't even trying - because it's much easier and more fun to mock it all as self-absorbed non-truth-tracking ivory-tower nonsense.

There's a reason it is easier to dismiss some things as non-truth-tracking ivory-tower nonsense. A good one.

We are ignoring some vast intellectual currents here.

This is a feature, not a bug. (Although I don't necessarily claim that the set of vast intellectual currents ignored is perfect, just that there is such a set and that there is non-trivial overlap.)

Comment author: ikrase 29 April 2013 09:30:40PM 4 points [-]

Yeah. Unfortunately all of that stuff is covered with a thick level of mindkilledness, plus some other incredibly messy stuff, anti-epistemology, etc.

I was really disappointed by the way that rather than adapting the valuable stuff, Atheism Plus just assimilated.

I do think that looking at this stuff would be pretty useful, although it should be scrubbed first.

Comment author: bogus 29 April 2013 04:02:11PM *  2 points [-]

Serious Marxian and feminist theory, in any sphere.

In many academic fields (including some social sciences, although obviously not econ), Marxist theory is still considered the go-to theory for what most people would simply consider "the economic way of thinking". This means that there's an absolutely huge amount of "Marxist analysis" of culture and society with uncertain status, because economically-literate folks simply haven't had a chance to look at it. Much of this analysis probably makes a lot of sense from the POV of modern economics; much of it is probably utterly nonsensical.

The situation when referring to other branches of "Continental" theorizing (and AIUI, this includes feminist theory) is roughly analogous, except that this particular kind of philosophy spans the range from utterly worthless stuff ("Uncle Bob's musings on life, the human mind and society!") to stuff which is probably valuable but we can't understand it properly because we lack more modern tools wrt. these topics (Freudian psychology might actually be a case in point here, especially in the light of cognitive-behavioral theory, perceptual-control theory and similar) and stuff which just needs some sort of cleanup, like Marxist analyses.

Comment author: ikrase 29 April 2013 09:31:38PM 2 points [-]

Worth noting that as far as I can tell, the phrase 'cultural marxism' refers to a strawman, and a strawman alone.

Comment author: bogus 29 April 2013 10:18:47PM *  7 points [-]

Wikipedia seems to disagree, actually. It is used to refer both to a political strawman, and to a legitimate school of thought - which need not have political implications persay[1]. The generally used label seems to be "critical theory", or even "theory" for short (talk about ambiguity!); which definitely includes Marxist ideas in addition to other stuff.

[1] Considering how ubiquitous the use of Marxian theory is in the humanities and social sciences, expecting everyone who uses such theories to be a radical socialist is kind of like expecting all business or econ professors to be extreme conservatives or libertarians.

Comment author: ikrase 30 April 2013 07:50:38AM 4 points [-]

Hmmm. I have never heard the exact phrase used in a non-politically-smearing context.

Comment author: Oligopsony 29 April 2013 08:19:28PM *  2 points [-]

Translating any serious insights into LW-speak by myself is a bit of a daunting task

I like to think my entire tenure here has been something of an attempt at this, although of course I can't say how successful it's been.

(I'd also characterize it as in black rather than clown suits, at least from the inside. Will Newsome and muflax are the clown suit guys here, God bless them.)

Comment author: David_Gerard 30 April 2013 10:22:20PM *  -1 points [-]

Can I just note I'm amazed by the commenters in this post who are libertarians about money but appear to be socialists with other people's time and attention. The world does not owe you a social living.

Comment author: Jack 01 May 2013 01:53:03PM 7 points [-]

Worth noting that libertarians on Less Wrong tend to be libertarians because they think free markets produce more utility without government intervention-- not because they believe a story about taxation being unjustified coercion or wealth redistribution being theft. There is nothing necessarily hypocritical about thinking that wealth shouldn't be redistributed but social status should.

Though I suspect there are pro-free market arguments that would cross apply.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 May 2013 01:56:30AM *  4 points [-]

The world does not owe you a social living.

True, it also isn't entitled to stop us from trying to acquire one by imposing arbitrary rules.

Edit: I could equally well turn the question around and ask why liberals aren't trying to make social livings more fair.

Comment author: David_Gerard 01 May 2013 12:58:24PM -1 points [-]

I gotta ask: how's your present approach working out for you?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 May 2013 11:54:35PM 3 points [-]

Do you mean the present approach to markets, or to dating?

Comment author: David_Gerard 02 May 2013 06:47:17AM 2 points [-]

How your present approach to everything works out in terms of dating.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 May 2013 06:48:54PM 1 point [-]

Is there any chance that there are people who want your company that you've been ignoring?

Comment author: OrphanWilde 01 May 2013 01:01:33AM 0 points [-]

While I agree with your fundamental point, you seem too be confusing libertarian political philosophy with libertine ethics.

Comment author: drethelin 29 April 2013 02:42:40PM 1 point [-]

give me three simple examples on the order of length of sequence posts of what there is to be gained from these vast intellectual currents there.

Comment author: Multiheaded 29 April 2013 03:01:44PM *  6 points [-]

Again, please understand that this is a little frustrating for me. Just throwing some goddamn links without further comment for now, OK? The below is entirely random, just the stuff I had in nearby tabs - I have no idea of what links to pick for a proper LW-style introduction to a subject.

Structural power as applied to decision theory:

http://personal.lse.ac.uk/Kanazawa/pdfs/AJS1994.pdf

Erik Olin Wright's works on Marxist social analysis:

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/selected-published-writings.htm

Gender:

http://isreview.org/issues/02/engles_family.shtml

Econ:

http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/a-brief-anti-economist-history/

http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/why-does-capital-have-more-bargaining-power-than-labour/

http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/is-economics-a-gun-that-only-fires-left/

(Also check out Chris Dillow's blog.)

Comment author: drethelin 29 April 2013 03:30:27PM 1 point [-]

Responding to these in the order I look at them which is not the order you linked them: The gender one fails literally in the first 2 paragraphs.

Women aren't oppressed and haven't STARTED being oppressed due to 18th or 19th century cultural regimes like the bourgeois. This is like explaining black oppression as a consequence of the KKK despite african slavery having been a thing for centuries before that.

can you show me ONE post you read (not at random) that seemed as awesome and sense-making as http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ or http://lesswrong.com/lw/nu/taboo_your_words/ or http://lesswrong.com/lw/ny/sneaking_in_connotations/ or etc.

Comment author: drethelin 29 April 2013 03:56:39PM 0 points [-]

http://personal.lse.ac.uk/Kanazawa/pdfs/AJS1994.pdf this seems good but not actually about Marxism?

Comment author: drethelin 29 April 2013 03:50:25PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: Unlearningecon 29 April 2013 09:00:06PM 3 points [-]

Hi,

In the interests of policing every comment about my blog anywhere on the internet thought I'd comment.

@drethelin

It is self evident, but posts like that are intended to communicate the point to libertarians in a way they can understand (eg weird reductionist economist speak). I wish we lived in a world where nobody denied employers have power over their employees, but alas it is not the case.

@orphan

Work is necessary; working for a man in a moustache under hierarchical conditions is by no means natural (in fact, historically people have been incredibly resistant to wage labour and in many cases were effectively forced into it). It isn't about people being free from consequence; it's about their livelihoods and even life depending on whether someone who happens to own, legally, the means of production, decides to 'grant' them the 'privilege' of enough money for basic rights.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 April 2013 01:23:41AM 1 point [-]

In the interests of policing every comment about my blog anywhere on the internet thought I'd comment.

Holy shit, that sounds exhausting. How do you find the time?

Comment author: Unlearningecon 30 April 2013 04:57:43PM 6 points [-]

I was semi-joking, sometimes I just don't bother.

But the short answer to your question is: I'm a student.