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RichardKennaway comments on LW Women Entries- Creepiness - Less Wrong
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(Original first paragraph, but I agree with the commenters that I was misreading the other responses here): A lot of the responses here may tacitly assume that Submitter D or any other woman in her position "should" give all these geeks and nerds a fair or even shake. But should she?
EDIT: When I wrote the above I was most influenced by this thread of comments which is a discussion where women who say no to men are characterized as "bitches" and otherwise in the wrong. I'm leaving the original wording in place because there are a few comments which refer to it, but I do recognize that many of the responses here do not make the assumption I spelled out above.
*EDIT 2 I guess my interpretation of these comments, that women should give geeks a chance, is NOT born out by rereading the comments. No doubt I was projecting my own issues with women and acceptance. Oh well. So I'll still leave the first graf in since its so late in the game and following comments refer to it, but I don't think the comments here were going that way. I've learned something about myself.^
When I am looking to get my house cleaned, I don't believe I need to equally consider the thousands of possible house cleaners out there. My effort is optimized by investigating at most a few housekeepers and picking one that I think will do. Indeed, in my case I take whoever my sister or my cousin, who are both way more interested in this kind of thing than I, suggest.
It sounds like Submitter D receives much more potentially sexual attention than she needs. Apparently, some of it comes in a form which is fun and easy to evaluate while most comes in forms which are scary, annoying, and/or "creepy."
From the point of view of Submitter D, why should she put any effort at all into trying to increase her attraction to those to whom she is not attracted, if there is no real shortage for Submitter D's needs of suitors to whom she is easily and pleasantly attracted?
It makes no sense for Submitter D to put more effort into this than is required to get her needs met. Any effort to get her to respond to other guys than to the ones who already satisfy her might be analagous to used car salesman trying to sell you some POS on their lot not because it is something that will really satisfy you, but because it happens to be what tthe salesman has on the lot to sell. I know I ( a male ) find used car salesmen creepy, maybe this is an informative comparison.
There's a difference between not being attracted to someone and regarding them in a manner more appropriate to something crawling up your shoe which I don't think your comment is really acknowledging. The complaints seem to originate about the latter, not the former.
I don't think I've actually seen any comments that somebody should give them a fair shake as a dating prospect. Treating people as people would be an improvement.
Eh, I don't know. To some folks, finding out that someone is attracted to them, when they don't reciprocate, might be a little like finding out that someone you know would really like to stick their fingers up your nose and sneeze in your mouth.
Given the person in question isn't willing to violate your consent in order to do so, what's the problem?
How strongly do you believe that?
Plus, they keep bugging you about it and thereby eliciting unpleasant imagery in your mind. And trying to modify you to cause you to consent. And moping dejectedly about how nobody lets them do it. And coming in to work after watching snot videos and staring at your mouth when you yawn.
I mean, seriously, ew. Even if it's not threatening, it's still unpleasant.
"Finding out" and "Being pressured into" aren't the same things at all. Your "plus" is an insertion after the fact; the statement Mwengler made which I responded to was that all the complaints were about how women wouldn't date poorly-socialized people, and my response was that this isn't what the complaints are about at all, but about how a particular segment of society demands we -revile- poorly socialized people. There are some really good comments made recently pointing out that the audience for these demands is strictly composed of those people for whom these demands are most implicitly harmful.
But back on point, you do realize your argument here represents an attempt to trigger a halo effect on my part? I should revile all snot-gobbers (to make up a suitable invective for your made-up kink) because some snot-gobbers are assholes?
This argument is -particularly- unpersuasive to me because you're telling me I'm an extra-horrible person for being bisexual and being potentially attracted to -everybody-, and anything I do which reveals that to be the case is equivalent to pressuring them into sex. [ETA: This may not be the case you're making, in further consideration. I'm leaving this here, however, because this is exactly how you're coming across to me; your argument shares too many similarities with people who have made exactly this argument against me before.]
Eh? I'm not making an argument that anyone is horrible. I'm trying to express that people who do have an unpleasant reaction to others' sexual attraction to them are not some kind of broken alien robot zombies, nor are they dehumanizing anyone (as you implied upthread). They are (frequently) in situations that, if we empathize with them at all, we may notice their responses actually make a heck of a lot of sense.
They're free to have an unpleasant reaction to others' sexual attraction to them.
But their freedom to have that unpleasant reaction stops short of being free from criticism when they suggest that that sexual attraction, being unwanted, makes -other- people broken alien robot zombies.
ETA: Parallel conversation suggests where our disconnect is coming from. I'm not arguing against unpleasant reactions, I'm arguing against certain behaviors arising from unpleasant reactions.
No, even if unwittingly creepy folks were not reviled, most of the complaints about them would still stand. It's not even clear that the people who complain about creepers are demanding anything, as opposed to simply expressing their own revulsion. Consider that many and perhaps most folks dislike rude people to some extent - and creeper behavior is unquestionably more obnoxious than many other kinds of social faux pas.
Sigh. I'm not talking about people complaining about creepy behavior. I'm talking about people who, for example, lump passive-aggressive sexual behavior in with "rape culture."
Google "creep rape culture". There are a lot of people who argue that creepiness should be clamped down on, hard, by society. Lost in the discussion is that "creepiness" is -really fucking vague-, and includes not only the examples of aggressive behavior listed in some of the links there, but also a lot of passive behavior which, as another commenter here pointed out, can be as simple as never acting on feelings that are apparent to other people.
"Creepy" is a spectrum, ranging from the harmless (and in some cases maybe even helpful - I'm not going to hit on a guy I know isn't gay/bisexual, even if I'm attracted to him, and even if it might be painfully apparent that I'm attracted to him - for example, the really cute waiter with blue hair at my favorite restaurant who I probably look at a little too often) to the harmful (not going into examples here, I'm sure you can come up with something).
It's not helpful, in the least, to address the entire spectrum as if only a subset of it were real.
Well, now you're changing the subject. AIUI, nobody in this thread has been lumping mild forms of creepiness in with 'rape culture'. However, it only takes listening to the latest gangsta hip hop rap "songs" to realize that some parts of popular culture do glorify predatory behavior (if not perhaps actual rape) to a disturbing extent. It's not a stretch to assume that at least some people who consume such content might be unconciously influenced by it and perhaps become more creepy as a result.
The person I was responding to -was- lumping mild forms of creepiness in with rape culture with the "snot-gobber" example (as the aggressive behavior described pretty much fit that nomer). That wasn't me changing the subject, that was me responding to somebody else changing the subject.
And now you're changing the subject.
(Also, what the hell, Less Wrong? Of all my views, why do I get upvoted most consistently for my views on gender relations, of all things? I'm antisocial bordering on sociopathic. My idea of a good dating profile is one which frightens away as many people I deem unacceptable as possible, my idea of a good dating profile picture involves me holding a gun and a bottle of Jack Daniels. One of us is extremely poorly calibrated here.)
No they haven't. Why is this straw man encouraged?
And it makes sense for person-submitter-D-doesn't-require-for-sexual-services to put in the effort required to get his needs met. For example, by following the conventional courtship strategy of asking for phone numbers at a certain point in the process. It makes no sense for him to comply with demands to not ask for phone numbers because that would make it more personally convenient for her at the expense of himself. (Especially since resistance to that kind of social pressure is one of the key elements of attraction. Being sensitive to disapproval and vulnerable to shaming is a terrible mating strategy!)
That's most definitely not at all what my friends whom I paraphrased in that comment were thinking of.
I just reread that entire thread and I see what you mean. These commenters were really commenting on a woman who did not communicate her disinterest but simply stopped communicating.
I think I am guilty of projection, of having my own powerful issues around attraction and rejection, and seeing them in other places even when they are not there. This is great info for me to have, that this issue is still so alive in me that it warps my ability to even read. Since I am very recently separated, I may actually be able to use this information.
I hate romantic rejection SO MUCH. I think it totally warps me.
Huh. I've seen a fair share of Nice Guy™ism on the Web, but very little in this thread.
(I immediately came up with a couple reasons why this analogy breaks down, but neither of them actually apply to LW meetups, where men largely outnumber women and a sizeable fraction of people are polyamorous.)
The problem with that is that it can generate nasty information cascades.
I agree with the rest of the comment.