Viliam_Bur comments on [Link] The Worst-Run Big City in the U.S. - Less Wrong

28 [deleted] 02 December 2012 12:50PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (44)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 December 2012 12:05:24PM *  7 points [-]

But there is always some metric to be gamed. There is always some causality chain which results in a specific distribution of money to organizations. Just because we close our eyes, it does not make the causality go away.

Instead of organizations wasting money on and time a dysfunctional official metric, there will be organizations wasting money and time on alternative ways (bribery, fraud, advertising, lobbying, propaganda...) of convincing government that it's they who should get a bite from the budget.

Comment author: Desrtopa 04 December 2012 04:52:27AM 3 points [-]

But there is always some metric to be gamed. There is always some causality chain which results in a specific distribution of money to organizations. Just because we close our eyes, it does not make the causality go away.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the system is gameable. If we suppose that what we're measuring is actually exactly what we want to get out of the program, then the only way the program can get ahead is by providing more of what we want. The system can only be "gamed" to the extent that there's a divorce between what we want from it, and what sort of output we measure.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 04 December 2012 07:30:01AM *  5 points [-]

And to the extent that it's easier to "game" the system than to legitimately provide services.

Comment author: zaph 03 December 2012 01:07:46PM 2 points [-]

I'm leery of organizations providing their own statistics on how effective they are, which may just be another form of lobbying and propaganda. I'd lean towards carving out from the budget a group that independently assesses effectiveness of each of the organizations. It's admittedly imperfect, but it would be more impartial than what seems to be in place now, and agencies wouldn't necessarily be at a disadvantage for lacking their own internal measurement tools. That still leaves the problem of choosing the right metrics. Something simple like budget percentages and ratios would be a good place to start. There are a lot of hard-to-compare types of services out there; after school programs aren't like Meals on Wheels programs. It's hard to come up outcome based metrics to say which service is better than another when there's so many different categories. Adopting something along the lines of the financial ratings at Charity Navigator could at least get everyone on the same page for controlling costs at their organizations.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 December 2012 02:51:13PM 3 points [-]

It's hard to come up outcome based metrics to say which service is better than another when there's so many different categories.

At least we could compare organizations within the same category. Splitting the budget across categories would remain a political decision, but within a category, inefficient organizations should be ignored.

Even in absence of measurements, it would be good if all organizations would have to make and publish their reports, which would have to approved by a person who could point at different places in the report and say "be more specific".

For example if the first approximation is "Our organization supports world peace", the 20th approximation would be "We have spent $1,000,000 on salaries of our employees; $500,000 on our building; $100,000 on food; and $100 on printing 200 flyers with big colored letters 'World Peace is a Great Thing'. Then we used volunteers to distribute those flyers on the university campus. Also, we paid $10,000 for design." And then the Chief Specificity Officer would say: "OK, this is specific enough, you may publish it online."

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 04 December 2012 08:17:46AM 0 points [-]

Instead of organizations wasting money on and time a dysfunctional official metric, there will be organizations wasting money and time on alternative ways (bribery, fraud, advertising, lobbying, propaganda...) of convincing government that it's they who should get a bite from the budget.

Sure, but the existence of bribery and corruption can actually be viewed as an argument for not establishing any rigorous metrics: the worse things are, the more likely it is that any supposedly objective metrics get turned into instruments for giving specific organizations plenty of money and shutting everyone else out. That happens all the time in the public sector, with e.g. lucrative contracts being supposedly offered for anyone who can fill the requirements and bids the lowest, but with the requirements being intentionally crafted so that only a few favored organizations can match them. Without such a setup, other organizations might actually get their offers into consideration.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 04 December 2012 08:56:12AM *  7 points [-]

That happens all the time in the public sector, with e.g. lucrative contracts being supposedly offered for anyone who can fill the requirements and bids the lowest, but with the requirements being intentionally crafted so that only a few favored organizations can match them. Without such a setup, other organizations might actually get their offers into consideration.

If someone is corrupted enough to design the requirements so that they match a favored organization... what will happen if the same person is allowed to make the same decision, without the condition of choosing the lowest price? I guess the same favored organization will get the contract, only the price will be much higher.

(Case study: This is how highways are built in Slovakia from European Union's PPP money. When one specific political party is in government, only 20 kms per year are built for the same money that was enough to build 100 kms per other years. The reason is that all contracts go to companies belonging to the boss of the given party. All competing companies are refused, officially because their prices are "suspiciously low".)