paper-machine comments on Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant - Less Wrong

65 Post author: lukeprog 06 December 2012 12:42AM

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Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 04 December 2012 11:27:39AM 14 points [-]

Your examples of bad philosophy ... your reasons why they are bad ... aargh! Apparently it's bad to (1) reason about psychology (2) use the ideas of ancient philosophers (3) argue about definitions (4) mention religion at all. (I'm just guessing that this is the problem with the last item in the list.)

So far as I can see, the only problem you should have with papers 1 and 3 is that they're not sexy enough to hold your interest. They're not bursting at the seams with citations of experimental psychology or computational epistemology. Really, you shouldn't dismiss paper 2 as you do either, but I concede that seeing value in the psychological reflections of antiquity would require unusual broadmindedness. (Paper 4 is just oddball and I won't try to defend it as a representative of an important and unjustly maligned class of philosophical research.)

Concerning your curriculum for philosophy students, well, such zeal as yours is the basis for the renewal of a subject, but in the end I still think something like Plato and Kant would be a better foundation than Pearl and Kahneman. Causal diagrams and behavioral economics do not touch the why of causation or the how of conscious knowledge. If they were not complemented by something that promoted an awareness of the issues that these formalisms inherently do not answer, then philosophically they would define just another dogma parading itself as truth.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 December 2012 12:23:40PM *  3 points [-]

I myself am willing to go out on a limb and say paper 4 is possibly worth thinking about and not blatant trolling. I presume lukeprog wouldn't have a problem with a paper proposing an fMRI comparison study of atheist/theist Bach listeners. But one would first have to justify such an expense, no? Or at least formulate an hypothesis:

So what is the (appreciative) Christian experience of (great) religious music like? It is plausible to think that the following features are at least characteristic of it: (i) the sung text is taken to convey maximally deep and important truths about existence and the world — including, for example, truths about God, Christ, and the possibility of human salvation — and to convey them in a peculiarly powerful way; (ii) this power is registered, often or usually, in the emotional involvement that such works invite, so that listeners are stirred to feelings of, for example, wonder at the glory of God, gratitude for Christ’s sacrifice, or hope at the prospect of redemption; (iii) ‘emotional and spiritual succour’ is taken in the apprehension of these truths and the stirring of their attendant feelings; and (iv) this succour underwrites a very high valuation of the works which offer it.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 04 December 2012 01:07:58PM 3 points [-]

I presume lukeprog wouldn't have a problem with a paper proposing an fMRI comparison study of atheist/theist Bach listeners.

I hope lukeprog would not give a paper credence just because it did sciencey stuff and maths. There is, after all, the famous dead fish study which, as it happens, used fMRI. We have already learned that there is a lot of junk science in medicine and in nutrition. So also in neuroscience.

Luke, how does the Dolan & Sharot book measure up by the standards of science as it should be done?

Comment author: [deleted] 04 December 2012 01:31:26PM 0 points [-]

I hope lukeprog would not give a paper credence just because it did sciencey stuff and maths.

I was not suggesting anything of the sort. Azari's work on religious experience is not junk science, as far as I'm aware.